e-stand Battle of the Bulge Soldbuch?

[Floris]

Hello all,

This soldbuch is just sold on the e-stand:

Soldbuch Pz.Pio.Btl.209 Battle of the Bulge
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=751524

I wondered if this man really participated in the battle of the bulge.
From what I could find on the internet the 11 Panzer Division fought from autumn untill late 1944 against Patton's army and did not really take part in Operation Fall Braun.
Only as mobile reserve for the 7th Army. (other source than Lexikon: http://www.privateletters.net/DOCUME...1thPanzers.pdf)

Besides that the reserve lazarett entry on 16-12-1944 get some questions;
- is it possible to get straight into a reserve lazarett on the very same day someone got wounded instead of a fieldhospital?
- The name of the lazarett sounded more south or eastern German to me.

Do I see ghosts? Or has someone more info about the 11 PZD and or the lazarett entry?

[CWP]

Rakonitz, where the field hospital was located, is now Rakovnik in the Czech Republic.

[Lionel H.]

This Unit fought during the Lorraine campaign in sept.Oct. 1944 and it is quite sure this Guy was involved. For me, it is clearly NOT a "Battle of the Bulge" related Item. Nevertheless, I don't think this mention was written to fool anybody. In a lot of Books, the combats in eastern France are summarized in "Battle of the Bulge" which is completely wrong, including even the distance (approx 200/250km) !!

[Floris]

I know everybody is using the same sources, but if you search for "11 panzer division ardennes 1944" and you will get no hits at the first page than there rings a bell at me.
The battles in the ardennes are one of the main subjects in ww2 military history of wich books have been published about.
If we were talking about some smaller unit (Flak, Nebelwerfer, sanitater, werkstatt) it would have been less easier to find info.
But in this case it is an Panzer Division wich should have participated in the battle of the bulge and almost no info showes up??

Btw I really don't have the intention to nail somebody or enjoying this but sometimes a bit more searching would help imo instead of another quick sale.
The price of this soldbuch was made with the knowledge of his wounding at the first day of this major battle in the West in 1944.
I'am pretty sure the seller will help to find for a solution with the new owner.
Good luck.

[Eric JB]

Floris,

Do know that there are sellers (dealers) active on the e-stand who are able to describe a Soldbuch or Wehrpaß much more interesting than it in reality is.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

[Der_Stahlhelm]

It would be interesting and correct to read here a reply from the seller.....

[Lionel H.]

Floris,

Do know that there are sellers (dealers) active on the e-stand who are able to describe a Soldbuch or Wehrpaß much more interesting than it in reality is.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

I agree. But they are also Collector on the Forum who are able to make big noise with Groupings, SB's or WP's, for extreme usual Items. That is more funny than tragical. Concerning the point discussed by Floris, an accurate Description is for sure better, but the Buyer has also to study and exactly know what he is purchasing BEFORE sending money. Even without specialised documentation, it is easy on the Internet to find the campaigns where the 11.P.D. was involved in.

Concerning this Seller, I already bought excellent Stuff there, for very correct Prices. Everybody can be once be mistaking. L.

[Ralle84]

I hestitated to answer in this thread as long as the seller and the buyer are happy with their deal. I am quite shocked about people judging over other without giving evidence or prrof for their own opinion or thoughts

According to the Lexikon der Wehrmacht Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon 209 was part of the 11th Panzer Division.

[Ralle84]

And according to the LdW or Wiki the 11th. Panzer Division took part in the Battle of the Bulge or Ardennen-Offensive.

Now you see where I got my info from.

[Ralle84]

Now please feel free to show and proof that these informations given from the www are totally wrong.

By the way it would have been nice to inform me that this thread was started.
I can not agree on these Stasi-Methods shown by some members of this Forum

[Eric JB]

Ralle,

Like you, I hesitated to reply to the fact if the 11th Panzer Division took part in the Battle of the Bulge or not.

I am not known to the Stasi-methods, neither to the Gestapo-methods, seems to me that that is more something that has to do with Germany and Germans.......

- U.S. Army in World War II, European Theater of Operations, The Ardennes Battle of the Bulge, Hugh M. Cole.

von Rundstedt made his first request for troops from the OKW Reserve on 17 December, asking for the Führers Begleit Brigade, which was in readiness only thirty-five miles to the rear.
He was given the 9th SS Panzer Division, which was seventy miles from the battle field, and it required three separate petitions from von Rundstedt to change the Führer's mind.
Subsequent requests by OB West for the release of two armored divisions scheduled for early commitment, the 10th SS Panzer and 11th Panzer, produced no results until 23 December when two Volks Grenadier divisions were brought west in their place.
Even these Volks Grenadier formations had a string attached by OKW,
When, on 26 December, Model asked for a free hand with all OKW reserves, specifically mentioning the 10th SS Panzer and 11th Panzer plus three or four armored divisions from other theaters, he was given a stone-the two Volks Grenadier divisions brought up on the 23d.

- Battle of the Bulge, Hitler's Ardennes Offensive, 1944-1945, Danny S.Parker.
-The Battle of the Bulge, The German View, Perspectives from Hitler's High Command, edited by Danny S. Parker.
- Hitler's Ardennes Offensive, The German View of the Battle of the Bulge, edited by Danny S. Parker.

21.12.1944.
....a single Grenadier Regiment of Genlt. Wend von Wietersheim's tardy 11th Panzer had shown up at Kyllburg (without tanks, half-tracks or other heavy weapons).....however, all these formations had strings attached; they could not be committed without Hitler's ex-press approval.

(Kyllburg = - Eifelkreis Bitburg-Prüm)

24.12.1944.
....a battle group of the 11th Panzer Division was held in reserve near Wallendorf as a backstop.

29.12.1944.'
....von Rundstedt again appealed for a free hand with two available mobile formations in reserve: the 11th- and 10th SS- Panzer Divisions.
This Hitler refused once more, stating that they were "planned for other tasks."
He and Model would have to make do with the tired troops they already possessed.

18.-21. Jan.1945.
....Army Group B now placed a task force (Panzer Grenadier Regiment, reinforced - Graf Kielmannsegg) of 11 Panzer Division, which was being rehabilitated behind the Seventh Army front, behind the right wing of LXXX Inf.Corps as a security garrison within the West Wall.
This regiment could not be sent west of the Our (river).

While my first comment was not about your Soldbuch on the e-stand, but e-stand sales in general, this second reply is about the 11th Panzer Division......and with this information it is my humble opinion that your man didn't fight in the battle of the bulge as a battle group of the 11th Panzer Division was held in reserve near Wallendorf = Southern Shoulder of the battle of the bulge in Luxemburg - on 24.12. and that he was wounded before the battle of the bulge did start, wounded before 16.12, as his Soldbuch entry shows 16.12, and from being wounded on the West front and being brought to a hospital in Rakonitz in the Central Bohemian Region at the same day seems to be a bit too quick for me.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

[Simon O.]

I'm sure Ralle did not try and purposefully misrepresent this book, it's also right that it is discussed, especially as the value is based on the Bulge connection and the claim that he was wounded on the 16 Dec.44

Firstly, the hospital date is when the soldier entered the hospital not when he was wounded and as CWP pointed out, this hospital was a long way from the front, it will at best have taken days if not longer to get there. That alone means that the book cannot be connected to the opening day of the Bulge offensive.

As for the 11 Pz.Div. Certainly it was, or elements were involved in the later stages, but again, we're only interested in the 16th Dec. here.

Quoting from 'The Battle of the Bulge: Then and Now' p.36
" The introduction of the 11 Panzer Division into the battle was delayed by problems of its transfer from Heeresgruppe G in the South; a disagreement arose between von Rundstedt and the Heeregruppe G commander General Hermann Balck about moving an entire panzer division across a dislocated railway system, and by Dec.18 the disruption was such that the move had to be called off."

Attached are scans of the divisions movements for the period in question taken from 'Die Deutschen Divisionen 1939-1945' by Schmitz, Thies, Wegmann and Zweng.

The events of late nov. and early dec.44 concerning the 11 pz.div. can also be read here: http://books.google.no/books?id=HlA1...ivison&f=false

IMO he was wounded during the fighting in early december between Saarunion and Saargemünd, but it's clear that this book has no connection to the Bulge. As such i feel that the buyer should be made aware of that, in case he was unaware and bought the book on the strength of the Bulge connection.

[brooksbz]

I as a satisfied customer of this seller do not believe this is a big deal. IMO it is the responsibility of the buyer to check everything before a purchase. Also estand has a generous return policy. Needless to say I look forward to my next deal with Ralf.

[Eric JB]

I as a satisfied customer of this seller

And that is the most important issue of your bought item here, as long as you are happy with your purchase.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

[Simon O.]

I as a satisfied customer of this seller do not believe this is a big deal. IMO it is the responsibility of the buyer to check everything before a purchase. Also estand has a generous return policy. Needless to say I look forward to my next deal with Ralf.

It would be a big deal to a buyer who bought the book believing the description (and the rules do require that the item description is accurate). It's also the responsibility of the seller to correctly describe his items and many check first to see if they know what it is their selling, though in this case the seller is not at fault.

This item was put on hold within 20-30 minutes of it being put up for sale, that doesn't give much time for anyone to say 'hang on, this hasn't been described correctly'


That's one of the whole points of WAF and the E-stand, it's supposed to be a community of collectors helping each other out.