KZ Lager Ausweise - Opinions Please

[Ausweis]

I am being offered these two IDs and would like to have opinions before I give my answer to the seller.

[Ausweis]

No precedent I am aware of on the second piece. It is oilcloth.

[Ausweis]

enlargements of stempels.

[SiPo]

Look fine to me mate. Pity the photo of the collar tab has been defaced.

[Ausweis]

Thanks Graham. I value your opinion. I would also like the "Big Dog" to weigh in.

[CWP]

I love the photo on the second ID. Looks like a rare photo of an M44 tunic with upgraded collar tabs and collar tresse worn against regulations. Also a Luftwaffe marksmanship lanyard on that Heer tunic? Amazing portrait.

[JUNGCO]

Looks OK to me. Interesting make-shift second ID.
Jeff

[Panzer Rob]

Without any doubt the pink Sachsenburg Ausweis is 100% original. Can't say much on the blue GR Ausweis as I am not familiar with this type and have never handled any like it. That said, it could very well be 100% legit. Hopefully someone who has experience with IDs similar to this one can chime in.


Rob

[kuratorium]

First to the pink KL Sachsenburg card -
yes, it is undoubtedly original, but IMHO with replaced photo.
Note, that the circumference of the round stamp not exactly connect to the stamp on the photo.
And another thing -
all the pink and green KL Sbg cards I've ever seen were (probably when they expire), stamped with a special tripartite stamp - marked with arrow on the attached pictures. This tripartite stamp is on the KL Sbg cards with a photo always up the middle above (partially conceals the inscription "Lagerausweis") and if the photo on the card is missing (probably was used for a new card or ID), this stamp is always partially stamped on the missing photo place. It was exact so on all cards with missing photo I've ever seen.

To the second blue oilcloth card -
I do not want to judge the originality, but I've never seen this type of KL G-R round stamp on any other KL G-R documents. The round stamps used in KL G-R was indeed a quite atypical, but it looked completely different than this.
It is IMHO also very strange, that the Lagerführer which signed this card does not use his SS-rank, and why was the card not issued by the camp commander (Lagerkommandant) or his adjutant.
Regarding the fact, that the soldier on the photo wearing M44 jacket, the card should be at that time signed or stamped by the SS-Stubaf. Hassebroek.
And finaly -
both telephon numbers mentioned on the back side are also different from the correct numbers which I saw on all other KL G-R documents.
Just my opinions...

[kuratorium]

And still one question for SS-uniform experts - is the uniform on the photo correct for 1935?
Btw,for comparison - note the tripartite stamp hidden by photo :

[JUNGCO]

Wow Kuratorium, good eye! After a closer look, I believe you are right.
Jeff

[SiPo]

Yes, great eye indeed.

That will teach me to rush in without looking properly, but of course I'll blame my iPhone.

[Hundestaffel]

There's not much to add here over and above what Kuratorium has said.

IMO the Sachsenhausen ID is original but has been "played with", the Gross Rosen ID is - for various reasons (which are best not openly disclosed) - a post-war creation.


"Hundestaffel"

[Ausweis]

Thank you Kuratoriam and Hundestaffel! It will be a "no, thank you" to the seller and hopefully enough exposure for these to not be put back on the market.

[Panzer Rob]

Onkel K- you are absolutely correct. Upon closer inspection the photo on the Sachsenburg Ausweis does look to have been replaced!

Rob