Bandk.Abz.Silber - Feldgendarm

[PBR]

Andy, let me ask you again, just for my data archive:
are you saying that BW numbers were related just to former Third Reich soldiers that later joined the BW? May I just ask, for the record, how do you know this?

[Panzer Rob]

Hi T.K. I am also a BKA lover but I presume the Numbers of awarded BKA´s has been much higher. Don´t forget, the Bundeswehr 57 Awards are only those Numbers who served in the Bundeswehr after the war. The BKA is one of those Decorations which was mostly awarded in the last dropping month, in Times of Chaos and heavy losses.. My Opinion is, the Numbers of Decorations and Documents are so especially scarce because it was simply not "healthy" at that time to wear or preserve it

Btw, very nice Document

Kind Regards

andy

Hello Rob,

There's only one data in relation to the number of BKAs awarded during the war, and IMHO was very likely made out from the number of requests that the Bundewehr expected from the holders in order to wear the 57 version of that badge. This data is 510.....

Thanks for that info, guys. If this number of 510 badges (I take it this represents all three grades) comes from requests made to the BW for the 57 version, and considering the nature of what the award represented, I'd expect this to be a relatively small percentage of the total number awarded.

Incidentally for ground forces it was 50 days anti partisan combat to be qualified for the BKA in Silver and 75 if you were aircrew.

Regards,
Ian

Rob

[Panzer Rob]

Not rare or very rare

Although not Feldgendarmerie this is the only BKA I have now to a member of Polizei Schützen Regiment 33 later SS Polizei Regiment 10.

/Ian

Very nice, Ian! It's always a huge bonus to have the Einsatz/Nahkampf/Bandenkampf/Panzerkampf/Sturmtage etc. sheets with Soldbücher and more often than not they are missing!

I'm looking forward to seeing more of this Soldbuch.


Rob

[Hundestaffel]

Just a quick one here...

In French MacLean's "Dirlewanger" book "The Cruel Hunters", page 154, it is noted that :

"In late February [1944] Dirlewanger requested two hundred award documents for the [Anti-Partisan] badge in bronze, thirty for it in silver and twenty for the badge in gold".

IMO, the large majority of these documents (the bronze and silver at least) would have been requested for immediate use / issuance although a small portion would undoubtedly have been set aside for future use. Also, a quick run through the Bio's of SS Officers in that book (not including NCO's or EM) notes at least 6 or 8 SS Officers who served with just "Dirlewanger" alone who were awarded the AP in Silver.

Just something to consider when discussing numbers associated with the AP in Silver...


"Hundestaffel"

[PBR]

No, Rob, 510 is just for the Silber stufe, but, again, that this number was made from the BW is just my personal opinion!

1.650 Bronze, 510 Silber and 47 Gold are the total numbers considered at the present day as "total awarded badges" by the most of the BKA collectors\researchers.

Hello Hundes, thanks for the details, we posted the names from the Mc Lean's book long time ago on the Axis thread: I also have datas for other 2 huge BKA awardings, such as more than 100 at once, but they were actually unusual cases.
Also the reference to the certificates ordered is a bit strange to my eyes, since most of the times the certificates for the Silber and Bronze were actually the same, and the Stufe was typewritten on the document at the moment of the awarding.
Just the Gold BKA had a different kind of certificate, since it was usually awarded just by Himmler in person.
But, we all know, war things are often strange things.

BR

[Panzer Rob]

No, Rob, 510 is just for the Silber stufe, but, again, that this number was made from the BW is just my personal opinion!

1.650 Bronze, 510 Silber and 47 Gold are the total numbers considered at the present day as "total awarded badges" by the most of the BKA collectors\researchers.

Thank you for making this more clear. I read what you wrote as 510 applicants to the BW postwar for the '57 version of the BKA total. So, at least 510 silver are believed to have been awarded? That's a bit less than what I remember reading, but still more than 42 (!)

Thanks also for posting the estimated numbers for the awarding of the other grades of the badge. Good info for all to have for future reference!


Rob

[HouweTrouwe]

Hello Rob,

There's only one data in relation to the number of BKAs awarded during the war, and IMHO was very likely made out from the number of requests that the Bundewehr expected from the holders in order to wear the 57 version of that badge.
This data is 510, so, I would say that this would make it, if not very rare, quite rare at least (510 badges are actually are pretty few, if you consider that 890 individuals received the RK w. Oak Leaves, and that's considered a pretty rare award, am I wrong?).
The most of the ID books around today have BKAb entries.

The fact that was awarded to a Kettendog, make that document very rare.

Just my 2 cents

Many thanks for the comment but also others for the comments.

But as said in my post(s) do not keep on track with the Award in general! I stated many times that it is about the combination of the award and the (type of the) unit. I do not care about how many times the BKA.Silber was awarded but I used facts to understate my posts.

- Keep on track with the Feldgendarmerie... Instead of throwing numbers of other (type of) units, give facts and numbers of the BKA.Silber given to the Feldgendarmerie. Which this thread is all about. If around 510 BKA.Silber were awarded to SS Soldiers, Heer Soldiers etc. doesn't affect anything to this Soldbuch, because this soldier was a Feldgendarm and on this moment still not one post is made (unless by myself):

(a) How many BKA in Silber were awarded to the Feldgendarmerie
(b) Any photograph that shows a Feldgendarm with the BKA Silber
(c) Another Military ID document than this Soldbuch that confirms that another Feldgendarm, next to Kurt Anders, recieved the BKA.Silber.

- Next to this I don't think that 510 total awardings (on how many million German soldiers?) of the BKA Silber is to be called common.

- Rob, the number 42 (!) are known, listed holders, as I implicated and not the total awarded number. If more names pop up, 42 will be changed and the names need to be passed to the thread I've given up.

- Until the moment that a real document rises up with the BKA.Silber award to a Feldgendarm this one stays the only one in its kind. Even if a second or third rise up.. The number is (and will stay) so scientific, historical low that you cannot describe the rarity of this Soldbuch. That is my opinion.

[HouweTrouwe]

Just a quick one here...

In French MacLean's "Dirlewanger" book "The Cruel Hunters", page 154, it is noted that :

"In late February [1944] Dirlewanger requested two hundred award documents for the [Anti-Partisan] badge in bronze, thirty for it in silver and twenty for the badge in gold".

IMO, the large majority of these documents (the bronze and silver at least) would have been requested for immediate use / issuance although a small portion would undoubtedly have been set aside for future use. Also, a quick run through the Bio's of SS Officers in that book (not including NCO's or EM) notes at least 6 or 8 SS Officers who served with just "Dirlewanger" alone who were awarded the AP in Silver.

Just something to consider when discussing numbers associated with the AP in Silver...


"Hundestaffel"

... and now the number of BKA.Silber awarded to the Feldgendarmerie? Because the SS "Dirlewanger" unit, an originally formed unit for anti-partisan duties, hasn't anything related to the Feldgendarmerie.

[PBR]

Thank you for making this more clear. I read what you wrote as 510 applicants to the BW postwar for the '57 version of the BKA total. So, at least 510 silver are believed to have been awarded? That's a bit less than what I remember reading, but still more than 42 (!)

Thanks also for posting the estimated numbers for the awarding of the other grades of the badge. Good info for all to have for future reference!


Rob

Hello Rob,

Maybe I was not clear enough, I apologize.
Since long time the 1650b\510s\47g numbers are supposed to be the numbers of total BKA awardings: nobody know for sure where these estimated number came from.
Now, since I know from another source that around 40 was the number expect by the BW for the request of the 57 version in Gold, I thought that very likely even the S and B numbers had the same source, but this is only my personal opinion.

At the present day is belived that 510 Silber were awarded pre-45, but we cannot confirm this since, there are no complete names list for such award, and we know by far just 42 names of soldiers awarded with the BKAs.

[SiPo]

HouweTrouwe,

A fantastic......and very rare piece. Bravo!

[HouweTrouwe]

HouweTrouwe,

A fantastic......and very rare piece. Bravo!

Many thanks, Hanson