WP Panther commander 116 PZ with PAB25...

[Nico C]

10

[Nico C]

10a

[Nico C]

10b

[Panzer Rob]

Nico,

The entry on page 21 indicates that he was a Panzer III commander. He did serve in the I./Pz.Rgt.116 which was equipped with Panthers, but I see no entry indicating that he was in fact a Panther commander (however, considering his rank, experience, units and awards I'm sure it was definitely possible!)

I'm suspicious of the PAB.II Stufe entry. The award date is what's troubling me... If I'm not mistaken, official regulations for numbered awards state that only Kampftage "after" 01.July 1943 were considered eligible to count towards a numbered assault badge, yet this one was awarded "on" 01.July 1943.

Without seeing it in hand and from the scans provided, everything else looks OK to me but I personally have to question that PAB.II Stufe. Considering the units, awards and the various theaters of operation he was in, there's a very good chance he saw a lot of Tank combat.... but why would the award date of 01.July 1943 be entered if the combat days that counted towards it would have had to have come from kampftage after that date?

I'd like to hear some other opinions (including Ian's, Jeff's and Barry's) on this one...


Rob

[Gary T]

This WP was one of the batch of I./ Panzer Regiment 16 WPs and docs that came to light in the late 1990s. Quite a few had the PAB.II Stufe. Most of the personnel were from Panzer Abtielung 116 or Panzer AA 116.

I./ Panzer Regiment 16 did not serve in Normandy. The Panther component of the division was provided by I./ Panzer Regiment 24.

Rob, your logic for the assault days cannot be correct...if it is the Tiger Soldbuch entry in the other thread must also be regarded with suspicion.

[Simon O.]

It does say he was Kompanie Hauptfeldwebel for the last year or so of the war and thus his place was not in a tank but with the company's Gefechtstross that included the field kitchen, fuel trucks etc.

By the looks of it, the shrapnel wound to his right eye in Sept.42 put paid to his combat career.

[Panzer Rob]

Rob, your logic for the assault days cannot be correct...if it is the Tiger Soldbuch entry in the other thread must also be regarded with suspicion.

Gary,

The award in this Pz.Rgt.116 WP was supposedly issued on 01.July 1943, meaning that he would have had to have seen 22 armored engagements on one day, had the award submitted, approved, issued and entered into his WP - again - all in one day. Notice he was serving with 1./Panzer-Ausb.Abt.1 - in Erfurt - from 10.January - 10.July 1943. Was there a lot of combat going on in Wehrkreis IX that day (01.July 1943)? Furthermore, this guy was in Genesend then training/replacement units from what looks like October 1942 through April of 1944.

With the s.Pz.Abt.506 guy, there were 5 days for possible engagements that would could happened between 20.September and 24.September 1943, the date he died. I will have to check my copy of Tigers in Combat to see if it lists a detailed account of the combat days between those dates. I don't know the details of the awarding of the numbered PAB to the 506 Tiger soldier, but perhaps due to his death someone fudged the numbers and pushed it through? I do not know, but judging from the entry in the WP, I put a heck of a lot more faith in the 506 PAB.II entry than I do the one in the Pz.Rgt.116 WP.


And it's not logic my statement is based on, Gary. It's fact:

[Gary T]

Gary,

The award in this Pz.Rgt.116 WP was supposedly issued on 01.July 1943, meaning that he would have had to have seen 22 armored engagements on one day, had the award submitted, approved, issued and entered into his WP - again - all in one day. Notice he was serving with 1./Panzer-Ausb.Abt.1 - in Erfurt - from 10.January - 10.July 1943. Was there a lot of combat going on in Wehrkreis IX that day (01.July 1943)? Furthermore, this guy was in Genesend then training/replacement units from what looks like October 1942 through April of 1944.

With the s.Pz.Abt.506 guy, there were 5 days for possible engagements that would could happened between 20.September and 24.September 1943, the date he died. I will have to check my copy of Tigers in Combat to see if it lists a detailed account of the combat days between those dates. I don't know the details of the awarding of the numbered PAB to the 506 Tiger soldier, but perhaps due to his death someone fudged the numbers and pushed it through? I do not know, but judging from the entry in the WP, I put a heck of a lot more faith in the 506 PAB.II entry than I do the one in the Pz.Rgt.116 WP.


And it's not logic my statement is based on, Gary. It's fact:

I don't doubt the official regulations. The rest of the 2./ Pz Regt 116 batch had a few 25 PAB holders but most did not. Some of the younger members of the company had no awards. Seen on it's own I can understand the doubts about the entry.

Yes, the five days between 20th and 24th September are in Tigers in Combat, and so it's a maximum of 5 days if his company (and himself) were participants. The companies are not identified.

It is a bit of a contradiction that some awards could be back dated but the PAB was not - it's obvious some units took it on themselves to back date the counted assaults. The fact is the award was not to be officially backdated but it seemingly was by individual units.

[Nico C]

Thanks for the discussion, gentlemen.

So, follwing the arguments, we can conclude the following:


-PAB25 entry is questionable
-unit was not active in Normandie nor the Ardennes
-possible the soldier was not a Panther commander after his eye-wound


Correct?

That's indeed a real pity because it would have been a great WP otherwise....

[Angel Farré]

Listen, combat days counted only after July 1st, 1.943, but as with the Nahlkampfspange you have combat days credited for service since the beggining of the Russian invasion till July 1st, 1.943 so it is posible that he received the PAB II stüffe for continuos service in teh Ost Front.

Angel

[Nico C]

Since in the lot there were some other PAB25's and the info about the counting of the days, it would thus quite possible that he obtained it.
But his combat days were presumly before September 42 when he got wounded in his eye and afterwards got promoted to compagnie hauptfeldwebel.

Wasn't it possible Simon that as a Hauptfeldwebel he was a Panzer compagnie commander?
(maybe dumb question...)

[Gary T]

Thanks for the discussion, gentlemen.

So, follwing the arguments, we can conclude the following:


-PAB25 entry is questionable
-unit was not active in Normandie nor the Ardennes
-possible the soldier was not a Panther commander after his eye-wound


Correct?

That's indeed a real pity because it would have been a great WP otherwise....

I would still say it's a great WP...the unit was active in Hurtgen, Ardennnes at the final battles in Germany. I don't believe the PAB25 entry to be questionable. Certainly the owners of the other PAB25\2./ Pz Regt 16 have never raised it and some of them belong to users on this forum.

[Simon O.]

I agree with Gary, it's a great WP to a veteran decorated panzer senior NCO who was the 'Spiess' of his panther company during the late war period.

In addition to the Ardennes offensive the battalion also took part in the latter stages of the French campaign. In Sept.44 it was one of the units hastily rushed to France in order to try and stop the onward rush of the allies towards Germany.

[Simon O.]

Since in the lot there were some other PAB25's and the info about the counting of the days, it would thus quite possible that he obtained it.
But his combat days were presumly before September 42 when he got wounded in his eye and afterwards got promoted to compagnie hauptfeldwebel.

Wasn't it possible Simon that as a Hauptfeldwebel he was a Panzer compagnie commander?
(maybe dumb question...)

No that's not possible. He may however have temporarily taken over a zug or platoon, perhaps even climbed back into the turret of a panzer if the situation demanded it due to casualties but formally the Spiess did not ride a panzer. His job was admin and discipline.

[Panzer Rob]

Thanks for the discussion, gentlemen.

So, follwing the arguments, we can conclude the following:


-PAB25 entry is questionable
-unit was not active in Normandie nor the Ardennes
-possible the soldier was not a Panther commander after his eye-wound


Correct?

That's indeed a real pity because it would have been a great WP otherwise....

Nico,

I did not know that there was a batch of these 2./Pz.Rgt.16 Wehrpässe that surfaced some years ago, and it sounds like those who are aware of this find (and have seen or own examples from it) have no issues with the entry. My concern with the entry was based on the entry itself for obvious reasons.

It would be nice to see some of the PAB.II Stufe entries in the other Wehrpässe from this find to compare this one to. Maybe some of you out there who own them can post some images? I for one would like to see them...

Rob

Rob