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**Panzer Rob** · 08-04-2009, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by dennisb View Post

Rob, I think you misunderstand me. I did not say it was not possible because of the difference in rank, but in division.

Actually, ya' kinda' did..... You even agreed with me when I explained the difference in rank between the two entries, Dennis!

Your own words after I explained the rank discrepancy:

Originally posted by dennisb View Post

That could be the only explanation Rob.

You originally wrote:

Originally posted by dennisb View Post

"Take a look on the first two awards, these are signed by 'Oberleutnant und Kompaniechef (I do not know his name) of the Pz.Jäg. Abt. (SF) 731.' See his signature.

If you look on the EKII award which is signed by a 'Hauptmann und Kompaniechef' of the 212.I.D. you see the exact same signature.

And again, your own words:

Originally posted by dennisb View Post

[I][INDENT]How is that possible??? Two different man with the exact same signature?

So, to be clear, you asked - "How is that possible??? Two different man with the exact same signature?"

There wasn't any misunderstanding on my end - you clearly questioned how the two award entries could have been signed by the same exact man, but from different units (who had different ranks.) I explained the rank discrepancy - again, which again you agreed with me on. Then today you come back and say that it wasn't the rank issue, but the fact that the awards were listed with two different units but with the same signature...

Again, this - like the promotions - can be easily explained. The EKII was awarded 'through' the 212.I.D. but ENTERED INTO HIS SOLDBUCH by his own unit, 2./Pz.Jg.Abt.731, hence the same signatures.

The EKII award entry was entered by Mauter's unit and that entry signed by his company commander; the same person who authorized the KVK.II and drivers badge in bronze award entries, who received a promotion between the KVK.II and EK.II being entered.

Originally posted by dennisb View Post

the only explanation can be that Armee-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 731 was attached to the 212.I.D. somewhere in july because they never had fought together.

Exactly the point I (and others) have been trying to explain to you! This is how his EKII was awarded through the 212.I.D. !!! This is a very common occurrence and happened all throughout the war! The award was issued through one division and entered by that soldier's unit. Simple.

Originally posted by dennisb View Post

Looking to the information there is between the 212.I.D. and Armee-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 731 it is almost impossible that these 2 came across.

To touch on what you said about it being almost impossible that these 2 came across one another (even though YOU YOURSELF admitted that you do not have a detailed divisional history of the 212.I.D. or Pz.Jg.Abt.731:

Originally posted by dennisb View Post

So I think there is not enough information of both units.

.....and all of this is based on some very, very vague, brief breakdowns on a few web sites, how can you say that - even though they were fighting in the same general area that the two units could never have come in contact with one another?

I'd like to ask that you have a look at this. So there's no "confusion" I've outlined in red and blue the details I want you to elaborate on. Notice that it's the exact same unit, Pz.Jg.Abt.731:

Here you have a member of Pz.Jg.Abt. 731 (which fought with HG NORD at that time) who appears in Lemberg (in the SOUTH of Russia) in mid April 1944???

But that´s impossible!!! How could that be???

He was "versprengt", but nobody could be "versprengt" 1000 Kilometers from his unit, right Dennis???

Rob.

**dennisb** · 08-04-2009, 03:14 PM

Well Rob, there is no other way then admitting my mistake and telling that my 'research' before the statement about the EKII was to minor to give a good opinion.

On the other hand thanks alot for the information about 'scattered' troops.

**Gary T** · 08-04-2009, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by Rob Johnson View Post

Here you have a member of Pz.Jg.Abt. 731 (which fought with HG NORD at that time) who appears in Lemberg (in the SOUTH of Russia) in mid April 1944???

But that´s impossible!!! How could that be???

He was "versprengt", but nobody could be "versprengt" 1000 Kilometers from his unit, right Dennis???

Rob.

I don't know where the Sturmvogel website got it's info about the unit being created by AG North (a complete guess I think) but you don't need to trawl the internet to work it out. The three companies that formed it were all part of divisions that fought in the Kiev\Korosten area in November 1943 and were heavily hit by the Soviet offensive at the beginning of November. Also the second award (can't see the scans) was awarded by XXIV Panzer Korps, again part of the German counter offensive at Kiev in December.

As for the 3. Panzer Armee\16. Armee debate...212. ID was the only major unit of 3. Panzer Armee that wasn't encircled by the Soviet offensive. As such it was forced north while the rest of the army was encircled and destroyed to the south. Given the desperate situation at the time many units were thrown into the attempt to reconnect the front and it's highly likely that many assault gun and AT units were attached to 212. ID during the summer of 1944. Most of the units had to come from Army Group North (16. & 18. Armee) as this was the only source of reinforcements. See Steven Newton's book for the sort of operations I'm talking about.

**Panzer Rob** · 08-04-2009, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

I don't know where the Sturmvogel website got it's info about the unit being created by AG North (a complete guess I think)

I couldn't tell you Gary. I just got my info from there, I have nothing to do with the site. As is the case with most online sources, rarely is anything 100% correct.

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

The three companies that formed it were all part of divisions that fought in the Kiev\Korosten area in November 1943 and were heavily hit by the Soviet offensive at the beginning of November. Also the second award (can't see the scans) was awarded by XXIV Panzer Korps, again part of the German counter offensive at Kiev in December.

As for the 3. Panzer Armee\16. Armee debate...212. ID was the only major unit of 3. Panzer Armee that wasn't encircled by the Soviet offensive. As such it was forced north while the rest of the army was encircled and destroyed to the south. Given the desperate situation at the time many units were thrown into the attempt to reconnect the front and it's highly likely that many assault gun and AT units were attached to 212. ID during the summer of 1944. Most of the units had to come from Army Group North (16. & 18. Armee) as this was the only source of reinforcements. See Steven Newton's book for the sort of operations I'm talking about.

This is exactly the type of information I was looking for, and reinforces my argument that it was completely possible for elements of Pz.Jg.Abt.371 to have been subordinated to the 212.I.D. in the spring/summer of 1944, which would explain why the EKII was awarded through the 212.I.D.

The second award is a KVK.II

And I'm not sure why you chose to quote that particular part of my post, but in case it went over your head, it was meant to be sarcastic (based on the point I was proving with the image and info above it.) I have been arguing the point that it was totally possible for Pz/Jg.Abt.731 to have fought with elements of the 212.I.D. during the May - August 1944 time frame resulting in the award of the EKII through that division.

Rob

**B. Dietz** · 08-05-2009, 07:17 AM

Great thread, and hats off to the way you all have handled yourselves throughout the discussion.

**Panzer Rob** · 08-06-2009, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

Looks like the clerk 'rocked' the stamp. Personally, based on the actual awards (drivers awards were not given to armoured vehicle crews) and lack of an assault badge I would say he was a soft skin vehicle driver. The fact he was part of the Stab would back this up but of course it's impossible to know.

Gary-

If you check out posts 948 and 949 in this thread, you will see evidence of a Tiger I crew member who served in the 2./s.Pz.Abt.506 who was awarded the drivers badge (silber) while serving in s.Pz.Abt.506 as a tank crew member with the Abteilung. Notice the posthumous award of the PAB.II Stufe in post 952, and also the "Panzer Fahrer" and Führerschein entries on page 21.

Rob

**Gary T** · 08-06-2009, 12:22 PM

Rob,

I very much doubt he was awarded the Drivers Badge while being tank crew, especially as the award did not encompass tank crew. He was probably serving as softskin driver in Pz Abt 506 before casualties resulted him being re-assigned to tank crew. For a very good example of how drivers found themselves switched from armour\softskin\panzerjaeger see Henry Metelmann's book.

Now you could argue that could have happened to the guy with the soldbuch on this thread...however, it has a very dodgy Assault Badge entry and one that is dated at the end of the war. He'd served with Panzer Jaeger for a few years...I'd expect and assault badge long before.

Gary.

**Panzer Rob** · 08-06-2009, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

Rob,

I very much doubt he was awarded the Drivers Badge while being tank crew, especially as the award did not encompass tank crew. He was probably serving as softskin driver in Pz Abt 506 before casualties resulted him being re-assigned to tank crew. For a very good example of how drivers found themselves switched from armour\softskin\panzerjaeger see Henry Metelmann's book.

Gary.

Gary-

His transfer to s.Pz.Abt.506 took place on 08.May 1943 and he remained with this until his death on 24.September (no transfers to other units.) The drivers badge was awarded on 25.August 1943; he was already serving with s.Pz.Abt.506 when the drivers badge was awarded. Since he did not transfer to another unit it's very safe to assume that it was awarded through s.Pz.Abt.506.

Still, even without knowing the "exact" date or unit that actually issued the award (could have been awarded before, but entered at a later date) he was awarded the PAB in silver on 02.May 1940 indicating that he had participated in at least three separate armored engagements in a Panzer; he definitely served as a Panzer crew member "before" the drivers badge was awarded. The posthumous award of the PAB.II Stufe indicates that he saw a considerable amount of AFV (tank) combat with s.Pz.Abt.506 "after" the drivers badge was awarded. Hence, a AFV crew member who was awarded the drivers badge.

You said that "drivers awards were not given to armoured vehicle crews" yet the examples posted in this thread prove otherwise. The Totenkopf Panther crew member wearing the drivers badge on has black SS Panzer wrap with silver PAB) and the 506 Wehrpass to a Tiger crew member (and more than likely Tiger driver) prove that AFV crew members did in fact receive the drivers badge, and that they served as AFV crew members both before and after receiving it.

Perhaps you meant to say that the award was not issued to drivers of AFVs "while in a AFV crew member role" - meaning that at the time it was awarded, they were not serving as a AFV crew member/driver?

The award might not have "officially encompassed" tank crews, but period photographs and IDs (Wehrpässe such as the one referenced here) are proof that AFV crew members clearly received the drivers badge and did in fact serve as AFV (tank) crews, both before and after it was awarded to them.

The point I'm trying to make is that your statement "drivers awards were not given to armoured vehicle crews" is somewhat inaccurate and misleading and can be interpreted as "AFV crew members never received the award. Ever."

Clearly, they did.

Rob

**Gary T** · 08-06-2009, 03:34 PM

Rob,

You're twisting my words. You know exactly what I mean. Taking your logic to the extreme if you saw a panzer crewman (HG for example) wearing a pilots badge you would be stating that panzer crews could earn the pilots badge. If I poined out they couldn't you would claim "Clearly, they did" based on photographs.

Drivers awards weren't given to armoured crews. You may see them wearing them and they were awarded by armoured units but that does not mean they were awarded in relation to service with armoured vehicles. Unless you have the written biography of that individual you have no idea when or how he served within that unit or even if the award was earnt with that unit. The nature of what personnel did and didn't do within a company is very difficult to determine.

His award may very well have been awarded in August 1943 but III./ Panzer Regiment 33 was transferred back from Bryansk to St, Polten on 4th April 1943 to form schw. Panzer Abteilung 506. It didn't return to Russia until 17th September 1943 when it detrained at Zaporozhye. The first elements went into action on 20th September with I./ Panzer Grenadier Regiment 10. His award was made for service in Russia with III./ Panzer Regiment 33 and was probably for service in 1942 and early 1943.

As III./ Panzer Regiment 33 had continuity of service with s. Panzer Panzer Abetilung 506 he maybe moved to softskins for a time period in 1942/43. Then while retraining in Germany on Tigers he moved back to tank crew. We have no idea...you're just guessing whereas the official regulations back up the fact that drivers badges weren't issued to armoured crews - or more accurately for service in armoured vehicles.

One things for sure he must have had at least 20 assaults to his name before s. Pz. Abt. 506 arrived back in Russia. They launched five attacks (including the one he died in) from 20th - 24th September. The action in which he died cost his company 3 Tigers as total losses to anti-tank guns. The other 10 Tigers of the company were all damaged.

Anyhow back to this thread - it's very likely this guy was a softskin driver and the 'Hetzer Crew Member' line is something you see dealers using to sex up their wares. As he did not have an assault badge we can't be sure he was. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't - you're guessing as am I...but the documentary evidence and regulations support my view.

Gary.

**Edward** · 08-06-2009, 06:10 PM

An interesting and informative thread. Good points all around.

Would any share a translated version of the actual regulation where it mentions specifically that tank or armored personnel were, or were not eligible for the Kraftfahr-Bewährungsabzeichen?

From what I could find...

Award of the badge was retroactive to 1 December, 1940.

Conditions for award, in the case of the bronze were:

a. 90 days service as a dispatch rider.
b. 120 days service as a front-line supply driver.
c. 135 days service as a driver of any other military transport vehicle.

Just splitting hairs, but note that (c) mentions transport vehicle specifically which would have included the variety of lighter class armored vehicles designed primarily for the transport role. Imo, the spirit of the regulations mentioned above were such that although they could probably be interpreted in various ways the primary mission of Tanks and Assault Guns were as direct combat vehicles and not primarily as transports. What is stated under provision (c) is very clear.

How closely it was adhered too by commands in excluding, or awarding those who served exclusively in tank or Assault Gun units from award of the the badge I cannot say (I am speaking in terms of those who had no other prior branch service except Tanks and Assault Guns. Not the PzJäger types who transferd and qualified for the badge due to earlier service).

Not saying by a long shot that my opinion is anywhere near accurate. Would like to read the opinions of others on this.

**Ian Jewison** · 08-06-2009, 06:28 PM

Actual order from 23.10.1942.

Attached Files

Aug07#01.JPG (189.9 KB, 267 views)

**Panzer Rob** · 08-06-2009, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

Drivers awards weren't given to armoured crews. You may see them wearing them and they were awarded by armoured units but that does not mean they were awarded in relation to service with armoured vehicles.

Thank you! This is what I was trying to explain (and no, I was not twisting your words.) In my opinion, what you wrote could easily be misinterpreted by someone not fully in the know that drivers badges could not be awarded to AFV crew members and in turn form an opinion that a drivers badge award entry in a WP or SB to a self-propelled Panzerjäger or Tank crew member would mean that the individual was not an actual AFV crew member. The way you worded it, and the context in which it appeared, that's how it read... at least to me, and a few others, anyway.

It was possible for soldiers who crewed AFVs to be awarded a drivers badge but not for the role of a crew member of a tank, self propelled Panzerjäger, StuG, etc. (as clearly stated in the 23.10.1942 Ian posted above - thanks, Ian!)

It makes sense that you would see drivers badges on the sleeves of say StuG or Panzer drivers, as naturally you'd expect that those proficient in driving would be chosen to drive a vehicle in the event the vehicle's driver was killed, wounded, ill, etc., especially if they were qualified to! Also, as men are promoted up through the ranks they are given more and more responsibility and it's common practice (at least when I was in the Army) that someone who started out as say a troop carrier driver and showed potential would be selected to be trained as a driver for larger/heavier vehicles such as tanks, etc. This is especially true in a combat environment.

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

His award may very well have been awarded in August 1943 but III./ Panzer Regiment 33 was transferred back from Bryansk to St, Polten on 4th April 1943 to form schw. Panzer Abteilung 506. It didn't return to Russia until 17th September 1943 when it detrained at Zaporozhye. The first elements went into action on 20th September with I./ Panzer Grenadier Regiment 10. His award was made for service in Russia with III./ Panzer Regiment 33 and was probably for service in 1942 and early 1943.

Yes, you are correct, s.Pz.Abt.506 was formed in July 1943. Still, the badge was awarded in August of 1943, so while the driving days that qualified him for the badge would have been racked up with Pz.Rgt.33 I'd have to say that - IMHO - the award would have been issued through s.Pz.Abt.506.

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

We have no idea...you're just guessing whereas the official regulations back up the fact that drivers badges weren't issued to armoured crews - or more accurately for service in armoured vehicles.

My point is that it is totally acceptable to see a drivers badge worn on the sleeve (and entered in the Soldbuch/Wehrpass) of a AFV crew member, but that it was awarded NOT for service IN a AFV, but for service as a dispatch rider, transport/supply or resupply vehicle, etc. Again - the wording of your statement in the context of that post read as though it was not possible for AFV crew members to have the award, period. I'm not saying you were wrong, just that this was how it read (and not just to me.) That's all. End of story.

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

Anyhow back to this thread - it's very likely this guy was a softskin driver and the 'Hetzer Crew Member' line is something you see dealers using to sex up their wares. As he did not have an assault badge we can't be sure he was. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't - you're guessing as am I...but the documentary evidence and regulations support my view.

Gary.

Yes, back to the topic at hand - the Mauter Soldbuch.

Another point I'd like to bring up is that the exclusion of a GAB award entry does NOT necessarily mean he never crewed a Hetzer (however you would expect that someone who did spend a lot of time in a AFV would have received a PAB or GAB.) Also, the EKII does tell us that he did see some front line service and was rewarded for heroism in combat, under fire, in a combat role.

There are a number of reasons that could explain why a GAB was not entered. One being that he did crew a Hetzer, but had only one or two combat engagements, or that he crewed a HQ Hetzer a few times and didn't see as much combat as say one of the line platoon vehicles.

As Ian Jewison pointed out to me, he's seen more than one case where awards were clearly given but never entered into a soldier's Soldbuch. Granted, this is not a common occurrence and the consequences for being caught at a security checkpoint wearing medals and badges that were not entered into ones Soldbuch would have been severe... however it did in fact happen, just like we see totally legit, 100% original Soldbücher that never had a photo entered yet were clearly in service all the way up to the end of the war.

Perhaps Mauter's GAB was never entered due to the chaotic situation the Abteilung was in during the last few weeks/months of the war. As the Kurland cuff band would have been eligible to the entire Abteilung (provided they all met the criteria) it seems natural that this would be entered en mass in all of the unit members Soldbücher, but individual awards, such as a GAB, would not have been entered due to lack of records or proper authorization, or just "more important things to worry about."

All of these are stretches, yes, but at the same time they're all reasonable, legitimate and acceptable theories. Mind you, I am not trying to defend or condemn this Soldbuch and I'm not trying to make excuses for it; It's not mine and I have nothing to win or lose here. I posted it because of the various anomalies contained within it, with high hopes that it spark some discussion... and possibly even find a few answers.

And having said all that, I guess I will say this now... the "interesting email" that "Hundestaffel" mentioned earlier was from a fellow forum member who personally knows and is in close contact with Heinz Kühn, the commander of the 2./Pz.Jg.Abt.731 and held this role from late 1943 all the way up to the end of the war.

Herr Kühn's (confirmed) signature appears twice in this Soldbuch; once on page 15, on the 01.December 1943 entry, and a second time - ON THE SUPPOSEDLY BOGUS KURLAND ARMBAND/GAB AWARD ENTRY on page 21! So, that tells us that at least one of those award entries is original!!!!! Studying the entries, IMHO the "original" entry would be that for the Kurland armband, due to the fact that it's entered in the same color pencil, in the same style of handwriting as the word "Auszeichnung" and also because the unit ended the war fighting in the Kurland.

Now... the GAB entry could very well have been entered post-war, as it's in regular pencil, in a different hand, and appears to have been squeezed in. In a perfect world you'd expect that both awards would have been entered at the same time, in the same color pencil and hand, but again- perhaps due to the lack of authorization the GAB was never "officially entered."

I will ask for a high-resolution scan of the area where the letters in "Auszeichnung" comes in contact with "Sturmabzeichen" to see if it's possible to determine which one was entered first (but I think I already know the answer.) The fact that the GAB entry pre-dates the Kurland entry yet - in this case - should have been entered at the same time as the Kurland entry doesn't go over very well, but can we rule out the fact that Mauter did in fact receive the GAB late in the war, yet it was never entered and so he entered it himself?

No, we can not start making excuses for every questionable entry for obvious reasons, but at the same time we shouldn't immediately dismiss a questionable looking award entry due to the fact that it "looks really bad" without really diving into some research because, in this case anyway, one of those "really bad looking" entries is actually original! Granted 99.9% of the time you don't have a collector stepping up to verify that he knows the (still living) officer who signed the questionable entry, but this does prove that not all is always exactly as it seems... if that makes sense!

I am still awaiting feedback from Herr Kühn as he is being shown high-quality printouts of the Soldbuch and will hopefully be able to verify if the man in the photograph is in fact Mauter, and maybe even shed some light on a few questions I drafted up for him (apparently he is still sharp as a tack!)

Time will tell I guess.........

Rob

**Gary T** · 08-09-2009, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by Rob Johnson View Post

Thank you!....especially true in a combat environment.

See my observation on Pilot's Badge. If someone read that an tank crew member would never be awarded that award ever, well what can I say without being offensive.

Yes, you are correct, s.Pz.Abt.506 was formed in July 1943. Still, the badge was awarded in August of 1943, so while the driving days that qualified him for the badge would have been racked up with Pz.Rgt.33 I'd have to say that - IMHO - the award would have been issued through s.Pz.Abt.506.

III./ Panzer Regiment 33 was s. Pz. Abt. 506 and so it being issued by s. Pz. Abt. 506 is logical. Not sure what you're trying to say...the personnel of the battalion never saw action from April - September 1943 and obviously the days were for before April 1943.

My point is that it is totally acceptable to see a drivers badge worn on the sleeve (and entered in the Soldbuch/Wehrpass) of a AFV crew member, but that it was awarded NOT for service IN a AFV, but for service as a dispatch rider, transport/supply or resupply vehicle, etc. Again - the wording of your statement in the context of that post read as though it was not possible for AFV crew members to have the award, period. I'm not saying you were wrong, just that this was how it read (and not just to me.) That's all. End of story.

Er, no it didn't. It said they were not given to AFV crewmen...never said anything about their previous roles.

[quote]Another point I'd like to bring up is that the exclusion of a GAB award entry does NOT necessarily mean he never crewed a Hetzer (however you would expect that someone who did spend a lot of time in a AFV would have received a PAB or GAB.) Also, the EKII does tell us that he did see some front line service and was rewarded for heroism in combat, under fire, in a combat role.[\quote]

Exactly what I said...however, the GAB\PAB would prove that he saw service in the vehicle. The lack of one doesn't - it's guess work. As for an EK2 - of course he'd have see some action...however, EK2s were not always handed out for what we'd think of as heroism. A cursory read of the many veteran biographies out there will tell you this.

There are a number of reasons that could explain why a GAB was not entered. One being that he did crew a Hetzer, but had only one or two combat engagements, or that he crewed a HQ Hetzer a few times and didn't see as much combat as say one of the line platoon vehicles.

Again, guess work.

As Ian Jewison pointed out to me, he's seen more than one case where awards were clearly given but never entered into a soldier's Soldbuch. Granted, this is not a common occurrence and the consequences for being caught at a security checkpoint wearing medals and badges that were not entered into ones Soldbuch would have been severe... however it did in fact happen, just like we see totally legit, 100% original Soldbücher that never had a photo entered yet were clearly in service all the way up to the end of the war.

We all know this. So, if a dealer produces a soldbuch with no awards in it he's quite within his rights to say the soldier 'could have' earned the IAB, EK2, EK1...based on the fact that we know some awards never made into some documentation. If the awards are there - it's fact. If they're not it's wishful thinking.

Perhaps Mauter's GAB was never entered due to the chaotic situation the Abteilung was in during the last few weeks/months of the war. As the Kurland cuff band would have been eligible to the entire Abteilung (provided they all met the criteria) it seems natural that this would be entered en mass in all of the unit members Soldbücher, but individual awards, such as a GAB, would not have been entered due to lack of records or proper authorization, or just "more important things to worry about."

All of these are stretches, yes, but at the same time they're all reasonable, legitimate and acceptable theories. Mind you, I am not trying to defend or condemn this Soldbuch and I'm not trying to make excuses for it; It's not mine and I have nothing to win or lose here. I posted it because of the various anomalies contained within it, with high hopes that it spark some discussion... and possibly even find a few answers.."

That's fine - as I said we can never know what he did. The facts (if it's accepted the GAB is false) don't allow us to say with certainty that is the case. Maybe my late war WP earned the DKiG\RK...but never made it on the list. It happened but you have to look at the documentary evidence for each item - we can't say 'perhaps this, perhaps that'. Do people buy items based on that sort of view? No.

And having said all that, I guess I will say this now.......

Time will tell I guess.........

I do think the Kurland entry is original but have doubts about the GAB and Wound Badges. Yes, you're correct it could turn out to be all prefectly explainable. Problem is most of the time there is no way to prove it one way or the other and it's a dangerous road to go down when suspicious entries\fake entries are argued away with a "you can't say it never happended" etc. Usually the exception proves the rule. What I see happeneing more and more is that the 'exceptions' are becoming the rule.

**Panzer Rob** · 08-11-2009, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by Gary T View Post

I do think the Kurland entry is original but have doubts about the GAB and Wound Badges. Yes, you're correct it could turn out to be all prefectly explainable. Problem is most of the time there is no way to prove it one way or the other and it's a dangerous road to go down when suspicious entries\fake entries are argued away with a "you can't say it never happended" etc. Usually the exception proves the rule. What I see happeneing more and more is that the 'exceptions' are becoming the rule.

I understand and share your concerns, Gary.

We can't make exceptions for anything and everything, but some "questionable" or "awful looking" entries can be explained and justified. There are those who refuse to accept anything that isn't 100% "textbook" and there are some who tend to look at questionable or "non-textbook" issues with an open and realistic mind (while still remaining objective) and in certain cases, through in-depth discussion and research, a entry (or entries) originally dismissed as "bad" or "questionable" can turn out to be actually authentic... and sometimes in the end one of those collectors who shunned said "bad" item winds up purchasing it

If there's enough supporting evidence contained elsewhere within the WP/SB (i.e. unit assignments, training, awards, etc) and based on the knowledge and understanding of combat environments and personal accounts of the actual veterans, one can strongly argue the point that - in the case of this Panzerjäger-Abt.731 Soldbuch - it's pretty safe to say that the fellow crewed a Hetzer. You can't say for 100% certain that he didn't, yet as we both agree without the award of a GAB, we can't be 100% sure he did. However the odds are strongly in favor that he did... much stronger than if he never served in a line platoon and was awarded only a KVK.II.

Rob

**Mogdala** · 09-23-2009, 01:10 PM

Today i managed to visit my good friend Mister Kühn. He assured me that the signatures on pages 15 and 21 are his own signatures. The entries itself were made by one of his clerks. If you have any other questions - let me know i´m just a bit in hurry

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Soldbuch to a Hetzer crew member

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