FlandersMilitaria

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Forged EK Entries in Soldbuch

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Forged EK Entries in Soldbuch

    I recently won a Soldbuch for a soldier who served with the Panzer-Lehr Division on the auction website 321 militaria. I was pretty happy about getting this Soldbuch, especially because I was looking for a Soldbuch from this division for some time. The Soldbuch included the soldier's award document for the Black Wound Badge, which he received on 24 July 1944 during the fighting at Normandie.
    I received the Soldbuch a few days ago from the seller

    - --
    and after reviewing the awards page, I was very dispapointed to see that the entries for the E.K. II and E.K. I had been added by a forger, not even a good one. I wrote to --- and told him about my disappointment and asked him for a full or partial refund. As I feared, --- defended the forged entries. Here are his words:

    ich habe in der Artikelbeschreibung die EKI/II Eintragungen nicht erwähnt. Soldbuch, Urkunde und weitere Papiere sind 100% original, DAS garantiere ich. (I did not mention the EK I/II entries in the item description)
    Da ich die Sachen so von privat bekommen habe, können die EK-Eintragungen, falls tatsächlich falsch, definitiv nur vom Soldbuch-Inhaber gemacht worden sein. (Since I acquired the items directly from the person, without a doubt, no one other than the Soldbuch owner could have added the entries, if in fact they are fake).
    Da sich die Sachen jahrelang in meiner Sammlung befanden, weiß ich definitiv, das KEINER ,außer eventuell der Inhaber, nachträglich Eintragungen in dem Soldbuch gemacht haben kann. (Since the items have been in my collection for many years, I know for sure that NO ONE other than the original bearer could have added the entries to the Soldbuch.
    Außerdem habe ich in der Artikelbeschreibung angeboten, sämtliche Käuferfragen zu beantworten, was ich auch getan habe. (Besides this, in the item description, I offered to answer any questions, which I also did).

    --- went on in another e-mail:

    Ich habe die Sachen über 10 Jahre lang in meinem Besitz gehabt, und außer dem Inhaber kann NIEMAND die EK-Eintragungen manipuliert haben. (I have had these items in my possession for more than ten years and besides the original bearer[the soldier], NO ONE could have manipulated the Iron Cross entries).

    Here is the items description for the Soldbuch as it appeared on 321militaria:

    Biete hier ein Soldbuch und Besitzzeugnis zum Verwundetenabzeichen in Schwarz. Der Soldat war Angehöriger der 2./Pz.Gren.Lehr Regt. 901 und wurde am 24. Juli 1944 verwundet. Das Soldbuch ist vollständig, es befinden sich noch div.Merkblätter (Malaria, Ruhr, Kampfstoffeinwirkung) darin. Nicht entnazifiziert ! Außerdem noch ein Heimkehrerpaß (wurde am 23.3.47 aus französischer Gefangenschaft entlassen). Bei Fragen bitte mailen!

    As everyone can see, --- did not mention the E.K. entries. I asked him why he didn't mention them and he failed to give me an answer. So I'll ask everyone on the forum, why do you think --- did not mention these entries? You will see that the entry for the Black Wound Badge is legitimate and was signed by the head doctor of Kriegslazarett 4/612. As you can see, the E.K. II entry was written right below the entry - so five days after being hospitalized, the soldier is out earning an E.K. II. Then, on 5 March 1945, using the same mighty pen from August 1944, the award for the E.K. I was made. And this clerk - or Soldbuch bearer as --- states - has no unit stamp, writes in "In Ermanglung eines Dienststempels" (In lack of a unit stamp), misspelling Ermangelung and writing a really funky "p" in the word Dienststempels. And then we have the certifying signature. I would expect the person to be at least a Leutnant, but we have an Oberfeldwebel, a company leader named Naennig, who uses a writing style that hardly looks wartime and forced. All of these entries have no flow to them, a sure sign of a forger.

    These entries were obviously made to enhance the value of the Soldbuch, which actually had the opposite effect. Now if you listen to ---, if the soldier himself added the E.K. entries, then he also forged his company commander's signature.

    I'd be curious to see if anyone comes to ---'s defense or can defend the entries. So what do you think gang, should I leave --- negative feedback on 321militaria?

    It's just frustrating to me when someone takes a perfectly good Soldbuch, adds entries to it (I'm not saying that --- did, but someone certainly did) and then a seller doesn't mention the fake entries and when confronted, defends them.

    Barry
    <!-- / message --><!-- attachments -->
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Stormfighter; 06-12-2008, 01:19 PM.

    #2
    --
    Attached Files

    Comment


      #3
      ---
      Attached Files

      Comment


        #4
        ----
        Attached Files

        Comment


          #5
          Hi Barry,

          Nice Soldbuch and award document, but srcewed-up by two - what looks to me - fake EK. entries.......and even very bad done forgery.

          In my opinion, when the two awards were done after the war by the veteran himself then he would only have written those two awards and no further stamp information, rank and name.

          Usually a seller would mention those two EKs, as even only an EK.2 would make the Soldbuch more interesting and selling much better than a Soldbuch with only a woundbadge.

          So why leaving those two important awards out of his description.

          Ofcourse the seller did know that, there isn't much room to doubt that he didn't know.

          Was it sold with guarantee ?

          Maybe it is better to contact the Militaria321 owners-board first and make you complain there.

          Hope that it will work out on a positive way for you.

          yours friendly

          Eric-Jan Bakker

          Comment


            #6
            Did the price you pay reflect it's value had the EK entries been genuine?
            Was a scan of the awards page included in the auction?
            Collecting German award documents, other paperwork and photos relating to Norway and Finland.

            Comment


              #7
              Gotta agree, fairly feeble attempt. Why don't people AT LEAST choose different pens?

              best
              Hank
              Unless it was nighttime, or the weather was bad, and you were running out of gas - then it was a sweaty nightmare, like a monkey f*ing a skunk.
              ~ Dan Hampton, Viper Pilot

              Comment


                #8
                .
                Last edited by Daniele C; 06-12-2008, 01:34 PM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Hi Barry

                  I see the soldbook and that you bid on it , for that I don´t place a bid .

                  I think the self than Eric Jan the two award entrys was fake and he do not say that you not cancel your bid , if he tell me from the two fake entrys I don´t want have and don´t bid .So he think all other people make the self and so he don´t tell from the fake entrys

                  Regards Thomas

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Barry:

                    This is clearly and unquestionably an attempt by the previous owner of this Soldbuch to disassociate himself from what he knew / knows to be bad EK entries.

                    About two years ago, I had a similiar instance in regards to an Identification I purchased off of 321, in which I was also met with the same "tone" of defense from the seller. I expressed my concerns to the Administrators of 321 sending them copies of all the e-mail correspondence I had with this fellow, and to their credit, the 321 Adminitrators stepped in and resolved the issue. How they resolved it "behind the scenes", I do not know, but I did receive my money back from the seller (along with his personalized "good wishes" to me). The seller was banned from (at least) selling on their site, not (to my knowledge) re-appearing since.

                    Hopefully, all works out and you are able to get your money refunded. Do please keep all of us posted in regards to this matter.

                    "Hundestaffel"
                    Last edited by Hundestaffel; 06-11-2008, 05:19 PM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Thanks for your comments Eric-Jan. Yes, perhaps I will write to 321militaria and complain. Actually, --- stated in his description that he guarantees the genuineness of the item and would grant a retun within 31 days of the sale. I may mention that point to him.

                      Simon, the price I paid, 180.-Euro ($291.40) was what I considered a fair price for this Soldbuch if it was unaltered. However, the addition of the EK entries makes it a liability. It's would be like buying the Mona Lisa and when you finally receive the painting, you see that someone has added a mustouche to her face. And no, the seller did not provide a scan of the awards page in the Soldbuch - obvioulsy he had something to hide.

                      Daniele, I know of no way to remove these entries. I think any attempt that was made would damage the page even more. If I did remove them somehow, one day somebody would ask, "I wonder why these entries were removed?" I would be interested in hearing from anyone if there is indeed an effective way of removing these entries that wouldn't damage the page. I agree Daniele, it's still a solid Panzer Lehr Soldbuch. It's just that I don't want to see any surprises when I get a Soldbuch. If the seller mentioned the wound badge, he sure as hell should have mentioned the EK entries whether they were original or not.

                      It is my conclusion that these entries were made by a forger to make the Soldbuch more valuable and definitely were not made by the soldier himself. --- apparently failed to mention the forged EK entries because he thought it might ruin his sale. He was probably hoping that someone would buy the Soldbuch and after they received it, say "Hey, wow, this soldier also earned the EK II and I and the seller forgot to mention it, so I got a really great deal."

                      Anyway, I didn't really want to start this link, but when I told the seller that I was thinking about exposing his business practices, he said, "Go ahead if it makes you feel better."

                      Barry
                      Last edited by Stormfighter; 06-12-2008, 01:21 PM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        .
                        Last edited by Daniele C; 06-12-2008, 01:34 PM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Stormfighter View Post

                          Simon, the price I paid, 180.-Euro ($291.40) was what I considered a fair price for this Soldbuch if it was unaltered. However, the addition of the EK entries makes it a liability. It's would be like buying the Mona Lisa and when you finally receive the painting, you see that someone has added a mustouche to her face. And no, the seller did not provide a scan of the awards page in the Soldbuch - obvioulsy he had something to hide.


                          Barry
                          Right, so the seller didn't say anything about the EK entries yet mentioned the WB and also didn't show a scan of the awards page.

                          Seems pretty clear cut to me. Get in touch with militaria321, if no joy then the site also has it's own forum.
                          Collecting German award documents, other paperwork and photos relating to Norway and Finland.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Stormfighter View Post
                            Thanks for your comments Eric-Jan. Yes, perhaps I will write to 321militaria and complain. Actually, ****** stated in his description that he guarantees the genuineness of the item and would grant a retun within 31 days of the sale. I may mention that point to him.

                            Barry
                            Hi Barry,

                            Don't wait too long with writing your complain to Militaria321.
                            Clear case: item sold with the seller's guarantees.
                            Fake entries for awards that weren't mentioned in the description and not shown by images.

                            Good luck further on with this problem.

                            yours friendly

                            Eric-Jan
                            Last edited by Eric-Jan Bakker; 06-13-2008, 06:29 AM. Reason: Name removed as asked by Barry

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I speak with Barry and the seller in germany and the will that I mediate and so I hope that I can help Barry fast

                              Regards Thomas

                              Comment

                              Users Viewing this Thread

                              Collapse

                              There are currently 9 users online. 0 members and 9 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 10,032 at 08:13 PM on 09-28-2024.

                              Working...
                              X