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**mdj** · 01-16-2008, 01:57 AM

Hi, I dont have knowledge about WP and SB but I know for sure that Germans at that times and nowadays wont make and wont accept a mistake in producing their (fine) materials. In this case I doubt therefore very strongly the possibility of a mistake in the word Wachbatallion without the letter "t". The germans are very precisely and accurate in their manufacturing.

The correct word in german is Wachbattaillon ! So that makes me personally conclude that the stamp has been applied in modern times.

Martin

**Hank C.** · 01-16-2008, 03:41 AM

Originally posted by mdj View Post

..edit..
but I know for sure that Germans at that times and nowadays wont make and wont accept a mistake in producing their (fine) materials.

...edit...

Martin

No offense Martin, but not true. Even the Germans, in WW2, produced "mistakes". There is a version of the official Krimschild award document where FeldMarschall is spelled WITHOUT the first "L" (one was posted recently in the docs forum by member Angel Farre), and I've seen pics of EK docs where it had been printed "Fuherer".

So while the Germans are noted for their desire for accuracy, it's entirely possible for a "t" to go missing or get added.

That doesn't save this Booklet from being bad, but it doesn't confirm it.

best
Hank

**Larry deZeng** · 01-16-2008, 07:31 AM

Hank is 100% correct. As a researcher and historian (and author) who has during the past 40 years read his way through countless hundreds of thousands of pages of wartime Kriegstagebücher und Anlagen, I quickly concluded that German military personnel were as poor or worse spellers that their American and British counterparts. What makes it even worse, German is one of the world's easiest languages to spell, unlike the far more difficult English language. Yet, the spelling exhibited in the wartime documentation - whether originating at OKH-level in Berlin or with a division or army at the front - was riddled with errors and atrocious at best. So some Strohkopf making a rubber stamp with "Wacht" instead of "Wach" is very plausible. The word is "Wache", but in compound nouns the "e" is dropped. There were many, many wartime military compound nouns beginning with "Wach", but only one that I am familiar with that began with "Wacht", and that is "Wachtturm" (watchtower).

--Larry

**peter u** · 01-16-2008, 12:46 PM

Hello Larry,

Wachtbattalion is how it is written in Dutch.
In Wachbattalion Nordwest there were many Dutch volunteers, so that might explain the spelling mistake.
If it is a mistake.
Just an idea.

Cheers,
Peter

**Eric JB** · 01-16-2008, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by peter u View Post

Hello Larry,

Wachtbattalion is how it is written in Dutch.
In Wachbattalion Nordwest there were many Dutch volunteers, so that might explain the spelling mistake.
If it is a mistake.
Just an idea.

Cheers,
Peter

Peter,

Are you now, because of a spelling-mistake in the unit-stamper, turning this Wehrpaß into an original one !?!?!

Because there were many Dutch volunteers in Wachbataillon Nordwest - that name given by decree of Heinrich Himmler.....so lets make a mariage between the Dutch and German version of the writing.
While the first stamp shows Wachbataillon without the T and the second stamp with a T

I thought that you in Belgium are using the same dictionary as we here in The Netherlands ???......well BRT use van Dale too !

Yes Wacht is Dutch, but Battalion isn't Dutch at all - as you wrote it this way in your reply !!!! and Bataillon as it is written in the stamp isn't it either !!!! as it is written as BATALJON !!! in the Dutch language.

yours friendly

Eric-Jan

yes in writing and typing I have seen writing/spelling-mistakes too, and even in 1940 there was a stamp-mistake on FSJ documents when Tweede Tol was stamped as Twede Tol.....but that stamp was done with a stamper one can place its own letterfonts in one by one.
But in a stamp ordered for at a shop.....I have my doubts.

**Larry deZeng** · 01-16-2008, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by peter u View Post

Hello Larry,
Wachtbattalion is how it is written in Dutch.
In Wachbattalion Nordwest there were many Dutch volunteers, so that might explain the spelling mistake.
If it is a mistake.
Just an idea.
Cheers,
Peter

Good information, Peter, and may explain how Martin arrived at his conclusion. But I don't think the Dutch use Battalion, do they? I think they use a different word or spelling, perhaps "bataljon", which would make the word "Wachtbataljon" in Dutch.

--Larry

**mdj** · 01-16-2008, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Hank Cummings View Post

No offense Martin, but not true. Even the Germans, in WW2, produced "mistakes". There is a version of the official Krimschild award document where FeldMarschall is spelled WITHOUT the first "L" (one was posted recently in the docs forum by member Angel Farre), and I've seen pics of EK docs where it had been printed "Fuherer".

So while the Germans are noted for their desire for accuracy, it's entirely possible for a "t" to go missing or get added.

That doesn't save this Booklet from being bad, but it doesn't confirm it.

best
Hank

Hi Hank, I cant deny that of course and admit you are right, but the chance that a spelling mistake came through the German controlling system, is very small (of course there will be examples in all those millions of documents that were made)....Therefore I doubt the possibility of a mistake. Only a dutchman

would make such a mistake in the stamp.

Larry is indeed correct by saying that the Dutch translation of the german word "Wachbataillon" is "Wachtbataljon".

Martin

**peter u** · 01-16-2008, 03:21 PM

Hallo Eric-Jan,

First lets get this straight, I have no cock in this fight!
I'am not the seller or the buyer, not the middle man or the pusher.

Second, you and all the other readers know that I'am not the forummember that gives easly a thumbs up.
specially on KL related ID booklets.

Third, I have written "just an idea".
Actually I have written that repley to give Larry an idea what the "T" in Wachtbattalion could be, a cross spelling of Dutch & German.

About the wp in question:
- When I saw it in this thread, I had a deja-vue.
It remained me of the wp's I saw so many years ago, an officer and a nco of KL-Hertzogenbosch.
From what I remember both wp's had the same "Wachbattalion Nordwest" & "KL Hertzogenbosch" stamps.
The officer was without doubt an original.
Also in the officer wp, the "KL Hertzogenbosch" stamp were in the middle of a row of all different (original) KL stamps.
Again from what I remember was that the stamps in the NCO wp, which was much less filled in, were the same stamps as in the officers wp.
Then I made the conclusion that both were original and like I said before I still regret not to have bought them both then on that fair in Antwerp.
Is this the same wp as the one I saw on the fair in Antwerp more then ten years ago?
I think so.
Would I swear an oath on it in court?
No.
Was the NCO that I saw on that fair a fake, made by the faker with the help of the officer wp to sell on a fair were he knows that their are a lot of Dutch collectors looking at his items, so that perhaps it would sell better then all those KL-Sachsenhausen wp's that were on that same fair also?
Perhaps.
I looked at that wp on a fair, with people pushing in my back and I was trying in my mind to fund the possible purchase.
After a while I placed them back on the stand and 15 minutes later when I returned to hagle a deal with the seller they were gone.

If this is a fake.
Then the fakers have a very good copy or perhaps the original of "KL-Flossenburg" stamp.
Because that stamp looks absolutly like all the "KL Flossenburg" stamps I have ever seen, in wp's that are without doubt originals.

That "KL-Flossenburg" stamp does prevent me from giving an openly thumbs down.

Also I want to add that on this forum I have seen forummmembers defending absolute fake KL wp's with much more ludicrous explainations then what I until now have written about this wp.

But let me repeat:
- I'am not the seller or the intrested buyer of this wp neither am I the middle man or the pusher.

Cheers,
Peter

BTW BRT doesn't excist anymore (more then 15 years), currently it is called: één

**Eric JB** · 01-16-2008, 03:43 PM

Peter,

I know the channels on the Belgium TV-network changed years ago: één, ketnet, canvas etc......, here many people (and I know from Belgium friends too) still use in the saying België 1 en 2...."op welke Belg / bels - 1 of 2"

I know you are a hard one when it comes to entries in SBs and WPs, to say if they are original wartime or not......and from what I can follow on the other forums such as the helmets too

I have seen that officer's WP too, had it in my hands.
Yes that was an original one without any doubts.
For today prices it was a cheap one, but at that time a lot of money.

I have no idea if the one shown here is the same as the one in Antwerp, I just can not say for sure yes or no !

I can say that I never defended fake entries here or where ever, and I never will, who's name or reputation is involved.......a fake is a fake and nothing more.

But for this Wehrpaß there a more no-s than yes for it imo.

yours friendly

Eric-Jan

**peter u** · 01-16-2008, 03:57 PM

Hello Eric Jan,

This WP sure has "issues" / "problems".
The miss spelling of the "Wachtbattalion" stamp sure can be questioned.

I repeat the KL-Flossenburg stamp is convincing.
And a lot of these KL wp's are very poorly filled in.
But fakers now this also.

Years ago we had the benifit of having an in hand inspection of both KL-Hertzogenbosch WP's.
Now we don't.
Now we have only scans of this example.
And many years have passed and we both have seen many other objects.
Is the memory always a good source of information?
....

That officer wp is sure isn't destroyed and perhaps in the collection an actif forummember.
He or she is the one that has the key in his or her hand to solve this puzzle, so that we can come to a well defined verdict on this wp.

Cheers,
Peter

**Eric JB** · 01-16-2008, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by peter u View Post

BTW BRT doesn't excist anymore (more then 15 years), currently it is called: één

BTW......it can be easy to make a joke on that one.......now you can see how bad the Belgium TV Channels are.......no-one here looks at them, so no-one knows that they no longe excist, two is called Ketnet and Canvas, and I really like the word CURRENTLY you used, they changed the names so often and by that looking new and different and set their hope on new and extra viewers

**Eric JB** · 01-16-2008, 04:04 PM

We can only hope that some one is able to post that officer's WP here on WAF.

yours

Eric-Jan

**Notebaert David** · 01-17-2008, 03:51 AM

Let we firstly put something straight. I am the owner of the questioned WP. Peter has nothing to do with this WP. Beside this forum peter and I have never had contact nor met eachother. The same goes for Eric-Jan.
But as we are all interested in the same collectorsfield, it would be great to do so.
I think we can learn a lot from eachother about Soldbücher and Wehrpasses and it would be nice to see each other's collection. It is not because we have different thoughts about this WP, that we can not talk together too.
My point off view about this is:
First
If this WP is false and the faker had the original officers WP to compare with. Why would he then use a mis-spelled stamp ? If it is so easy to copy a stamp. Then as faker make a correct stamp, not a mis-spelled.
My opinion is, that this stamp was produced by a Dutch stampmaker who got a (written) order to produce a Wachbatl."Nordwest" and made a Wachtbatl."Nordwest" stamp instead. In Dutch the abbreviations of battalion is also batl. If this was a handwritten order, everybody knows how difficult it is to read german war-time handwriting, if it was a typewrited order, it couls easly been mistyped, or it was just him who mismade the stamp.
Second
about the lak off more stamps? A Wehrpass is not a Soldbuch. A SB is kept up to date and every entery must be dated and stamped with the unit stamp or Feldpoststamp and must be signed by a CO or NCO. A wehrpass was not kept up to date, but only once in a while they would make entery's in the WP. Mostly when the Soldier was put on leave, discharged, put in the reserve or was MIA / KIA.
I have seen many WP's from KIA soldiers that had all the war related entery's made on the same day by the same officer and stamped with the same stamp, even multiple promotions and awards with different dates.
Also I have seen examples of WP where the promotions were not sigend and stamped at all.
In a WP we will mostly find pre-war stamps and mostly from a Wehrmelde Amt or Wehrbezirks Kommando.
Also comes with this Wp a letter from 31 July 1934 stating that Kurt Voigt was promoted to Trüppführer in the SA Sturm 5 Wilkau. Probably it is with this background that this person went on to becom a member of the Algemeine SS and later came to the Wachbatl. "Nordwest".
David

**Ian Jewison** · 01-17-2008, 05:11 AM

I havent really followed this thread but I must admit that I am not that keen on the entries from my initial look......I always frown upon a Wehrpass that has nothing more than stamps on the unit page!
At the same time I do not like to see stamps for the awards..............

David,

Have you, or can you contact WASt or BDC to get the records for this guy? I suggest that is the next port of call!

Regards,
Ian

**peter u** · 01-17-2008, 12:51 PM

Hello Ian,

"I always frown upon a Wehrpass that has nothing more than stamps on the unit page!"

- The large majority of KL related wp's have nothing more then some stamps on the unit page.
You can't compare a KL guard wp with a combat soldiers wp.
In the past I have seen many original KL wp's (examples with archive research) that had only a few unit stamps on the unit pages of the wp and nothing more, no signatures, no fp stamps, nothing but a unit stamp on the unit page.
Fakers know this also, it is no secret.
This is what makes it so difficult to tell friend from foe in this part of ID booklet collecting.
It is difficult but not impossible.

The only advice I can give is not to buy such an ID booklet if you aren't 100% convinced that it is original.

Cheers,
Peter

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