Thanks Janssen I really appreciate everyone's help on this. Sure their is some amount of dissappointment that it is not a true KZ lager SB in the true sense of the word, but just to have one with documentation from both units to me is quite interesting. And the fellow was Waffen SS as say opposed to luftwaffe perssonnal or grandpa being called up. Remember this is my FIRST SS soldbuc, just to have this piece of history as a collector is the thrill for me. It's not every day I see one much less own it.
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Last edited by HunterSS; 05-08-2007, 09:52 AM. -
I understandRemember this is my FIRST SS soldbuc, just to have this piece of history as a collector is the thrill for me. It's not every day I see one much less own it.
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I'm still waiting for my first SS wp to arrive. Although it is nothing special, I'm pleased with it.
Best,Comment
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Hello Mike,
Because you are a novice in sb collection so please let me explain why all the award citations on page 26 are fake.
Example: - 22.12.41 1 Verwundung:
1. This is the wrong way of writing that award in a sb it should be verwundungs abz schwarz.
2. You don't get the woundbadge in black for being sick behind the frontline.
Like in this case have a cardiac disease as driving instructor.
3. Look at the hand-writing it is the same for all the award on the above.
4. Does this mean that they are all fake: YES.
5. + all the awards are written in the sb in the wrong (non-standard) way.
6. Can you find the signature off that officer that signed for those awards somewhere in that sb? NO = bad signe.
7. Look at the fp stamp used on that page: unreadable = that is convenient for the faker!
Does this devalue that sb: yes, it is a messed about piece.
I understand that you wish to have such a sb in your collection, a lot of collectors do, but you can't force this.
You have to be patient, search around and build a network of people that can help you with this new part of the hobby.
Otherwise you become an easy victim for fakers and dishonest dealers.
What makes me sick is that someone just took advantage of your lack of knowledge about sb's to sell you this one most likely for way to much money also. This sounds to me as swindling.
Mike, you said that you are a former marine, so I guess you have the guts to take this back to the person that sold it to you.
If someone sold that to me I would be angry, money back or .....
But if you are happy to have this in your collection, so be it.
Succes,
PeterComment
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Page 26.Originally posted by peter u View Post
Regarding his age it is most likely he served in the military service during WW1. So he must at least have got the Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer. I presume that the awards above the shaky line are genuine (except date Verwundung)and are his WW1 medals (why fake a WW2 pass by putting WW1 medals in it?).
1. Only thing that is added recently is the WW2 date (22.12.41) before 1.Verwundung. 1.Verwundung was probably an early wound in WW1 when the wound badges weren't awarded yet.
2. Confirm, but when it is a WW1 entry that should match.
3.That is normal when adding the WW1 awards.
4.In this case it would proof that they are all genuine (except for the WW2 date before Verwundung).
5.Bit odd, non standard, but possible.
6.Signature of the 1943 War Merit Cross is also on page 3 (?) confirming his promotion on page 1. So if all awards are fake this would mean that page 1 and 3 have also new entries.
7.Difficult to see on the photo. Could you have a better scan of that stamp, or can you read what the unit is??
Opinions always welcome (p.s. I didn't sell the pass to him ;-))
PeterComment
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P.s. regarding the bulgarian medal added in blue.: I stated before that this would be a Bulgaian medal for the 1941 Heerestruppe Rumänien, but that will also be a WW1 medal, so he must have been active at the Eastern Front during WW1.Comment
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Peter,
- Why put in WW1 medals in a WW2 sb?
This sb is very dull (you probabily agree with me on that point) and it has the picture ript out.
So not much left. What would one dodgy dealer do to upgrade this sb to get it sold?
First add a picture with a story to replace the ript out photo.
Second add some awards to upgrade this sick driving instructures career.
But putting in WW2 medals would make it more silly, so it is an old man = adding ww1 medals is perhaps the solution?
This all said, I think I have made my point.
That sb smells imho.
Nothing is going to convince me that it is a 100% genuine sb.
But like you said Peter you are not the seller, I'am not the buyer.
It is not my money on the line, so this is it for me.
The new owner of this sb seems to be happy, so ....
Enjoy,
PeterComment
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If that citation was for a WW1 wound badge it would have the WW1 award date listed not 1941, the faker probabily thought all those hospital entries would have something to do with a wound recieved.
PComment
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Peter u,
As stated I am 100% sure that the photo is not original (so throw that away) and the date 1941 before 1.Verwundung is not original (added recently). As I sea it all other entries on page 26, 1 and 3 could be discussed. But I am not convinced yet that those entries are not original.
As you say SB is not 100% original, but also needs some further discussion. When only one date is entered on page 26 means that the damage to the soldbuch caused is lower than when all of the entries on page 26 are fake.
When HunterSS can point out what can be seen on the stamp on page 26 we could discuss further.
So HunterSS please add a good scan of the stamp.
Peter
(Janssen-Militaria)Comment
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Taking the dates away.......it is still looking wrong to me.
Auszeichnungen:
Weltkrieg 1915 - 1918.
1917. Eis. Kreuz. kl. II.
Ehrenkreuz.
1.Verwundung.
Bulgarische Medaille.
Verdienstkreuz Schwerten.
The dates 22.9.17, 22.12.41 and 30.1.44 Berlin looks to be entered later as is the round stamp.
Although most of the awards are written in the same hand writing, I can not inderstand why Kreuz for EK.2 is written shorter - looks like missing a letter - than the Kreuz in Ehrenkreuz.
The awards are just wrong written:
- Ehrenkreuz for what ? .....Frontkämpfer or an old German State ?
- Bulgarische Medaille ? ..... like Peter Janssen says WW1 or WW2.
- (Kriegs) Verdienstkreuz (mit) Schwerten ? ..... WW1 medal version from an old German State or a WW2 version, but which class ?
- since when is 1.Verwundung written in an award list ?
The longer I look at the award page the longer I think that that page was empty at the end of the war.
The one who made it up did write something after Eis.Kreuz kl. in letters then noticed his mistake, glued a piece of paper over it and wrote II in latin numbers.
Ofcourse there can be mistakes in such booklets, they can be corrected or a piece of paper glued over it, I have seen that in other booklets too, but here......all that can be messed-up here......is just messed-up with.
Not one award is entered properly correctly.
Very un-german.
No SS-Officer would put his signature under such an award list.
I think the signature, the SS-rank-stamp and the round-stamp are fakes too.
So is the promotion to this man.
Better scans of the round-stamp will not help, looks like two or even three stamps over each other so that no one can ever read the stamp itself.
"Maybe the ss-man himself was allowed to write his own awards in it just before he left the army, was a little bit illiterate, drunk too much and couldn't find his glasses, then nothing is wrong with the entries"
I feel sorry for the buyer who bought an original SS Soldbuch (once it was) with a fake photo and fake entries.
The faker didn't know how to do it right.
The seller should take this item back.
yours friendly
Eric-Jan BakkerComment
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Hi Eric,
As stated when the awards on page 26 are not original, this will result in page 1 and 3 also not original. So three pages with fake entries and a missing pass photo will probably mean that the pass is rubbish. I saw that the buyer was online several times today, but probably doesn't like the thread he started anymore??
Sometimes it is hard being a collector of militaria.
Regarding the entry 1.Verwunding: I thought that the Wound Badges were issued later on during WW1. I don't know the exact date. So when he got wounded early in the war he will have had his first wound, but didn't get the Wound Badge in black. Or am I wrong here??
KR,
PeterComment
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Sorry........working 12 hour night shifts leaves very little time. I am at work now so I now have a moment to post.....lol. Given all the opinions here from those more knowledgeable about these SBs I have made arrangements to return to the seller, whom I might add was very gracious. I sincerly do apperciate all those who have helped with this SB. I hope to bring another to this forum in the future. Learned a lot, made some contacts and now have some homework to do.....
MikeComment
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I'm glad you can return it.
On the other hand, another novice collector will be fooled by this pas in the future. I'm quite sure the dealer will pass this on to another buyer....instead of throwing it away.
Best,Comment
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Hello,
The moral story with these examples:
- Don't spend your money on them if you don't have the necessary knowledge.
The chance that you are buying something which isn't what is was supposed to be (for to much money) or even worse a total fake, is great!
Watch out!
Three good hints from Peter if you are intrested in KL related documents:
1. Learn/read about KL - and holocaust history, there are plenty of good refernce-books about this subject-matter around.
2. Contact collectors who have knowledge about these booklets and can help you with reading these booklets and verify the stamps and signatures used in them.
3. Do a search on this forum.
Cheers,
PeterComment
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Hi Peter,Originally posted by Janssen-Militar View Post
This man didn't receive a wound badge, it only mention 1.Verwundung, but for what reason to fill in a first wound as an award ?
But as I mentioned before......I think the award entries are all faked.
yours friendly
Eric-Jan
Mike I am glad to hear that you are able to return this Soldbuch.Comment
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