I would be interested in seeing more if possible as initially from what I see I would have concerns!
Cheers,
Ian
Cheers,
Ian
-
Photos/images copyright © Ian Jewison collection
Collecting interests: Cavalry units, 1 Kavallerie/24 Panzer Division, Stukageschwader 1
-
Wehrpass
Hello,
I attach two more photos. This time of the Soldbuch. His name is Hubert Lange and until recently it was not known that he was a member of KG51 since he didn't talk a lot about the wartime. He died - I think 2 years ago - his widow is still alive and I talked with her. There is a report about Hubert Lange in the German magazine FLUGZEUG as well as - I think - in a British magazine (the same report translated to English). The author had the opportunity to interview Hubert Lange when he was still alive. He also told him about the 5 victories he had. I first doubted it since his Leistungsbuch doesn't mention any victory just air combat with Spitfires and Thunderbolts, but without success. So I was surprised to see the entries in the Wehrpass which seem to prove it. I could try to decipher the stamp if anyone can tell me more. It isn't a Feldpostnummer, but something like L3 / 451 or 457.
His logbook and Leistungsbuch shows all his Me 262 flights and is signed by Major Unrau (the commader of I/KG51). Unfortunately, I cannot post photos of these documents as I signed a contract with the seller not to publish anything as he needs this information for historical reasons.
Regards
RogerComment
-
Photo 2
Photo 2Comment
-
14 Fl. Div.
PS: The last stamps and signature seems to be from 14. Fl. Div. (Flieger Division).
Regards
RogerComment
-
Interesting....I only find him listed as an Ehrenpokal winner in my references to hand at the moment!
/IanPhotos/images copyright © Ian Jewison collection
Collecting interests: Cavalry units, 1 Kavallerie/24 Panzer Division, Stukageschwader 1
Comment
-
Ehrenpokal
Hi Ian,
Could it be that because it was in the final weeks of the war that he got the KC that it wasn't recorded anymore?
I got some postwar documents from 1957 that came with the same group that confirms all these awards. That's the reason why he got them in the 1957 issue (which I also got together with the documents).
The Wehrpass is a Zweitschrift, therefore there are several entries in the same handwritting (added at the same time).
Regards
RogerComment
-
Very nice and interesting documents. Congratulations !
I hope we will can see more...Comment
-
Hi Roger,Originally posted by Sturmvogel View Post
If that was the case then he would be recorded in the RKT books I would have thought!!! There were many RK's that were awarded but not "authorised" through the correct channels in the closing days of the war and were subsequently revoked.
With that said, I would personally need to go through the documents with a fine tooth comb as I would'nt be so convinced.........
What is the date of the DK?
/IanPhotos/images copyright © Ian Jewison collection
Collecting interests: Cavalry units, 1 Kavallerie/24 Panzer Division, Stukageschwader 1
Comment
-
Rk
Hi Ian,
If he is not in the list, who can tell if the list is not complete OR if the Wehrpass is wrong. It is evidence against evidence. I am sure this list was not faultless. Lange had reached 200 Feindflüge in February 1945 and as far as I have found out this is enough to be awarded the RK, especially if he really shot down enemy fighters and a bomber with the Me 262.
If anybody could identify the stamp, that would help. If it is from 14. Fl. Div. I am sure the entry is 100% correct as I cannot imagine that Lange got hold of the correct stamp after the war and faked the entries.
It looks like he was awarded the DKiG on 17 March 1943. In the Soldbuch it is not well visible due to a hole for the folder.
Regards
RogerComment
-
Hubert Lange doesn't appear as either an RKT or winner of the DKiG and some of those entries seem a little odd to me. I would exercise caution w/ that group if I were you!
ps-the RK you posted from the group is also a fakeComment
-
Here's a little blurb on 14. Fl.Div., if that helps. As for Lange's Ritterkreuz, he's not in anything that I have. There were a lot of award recommendations made during the last chaotic weeks of the war, some of which were acted on and some of which that were not. So, I guess the task is is find out if, (1) he was formally recommended for the RK; (2) if so, was the recommendation approved up the chain of command and then by the highest level of authority; (3) if so, then was the award certificate officially executed and signed by the authorized individual; and, (4) was the certificate and the award presented to Lange. There are several folders of award recommendations and the action taken on them (or lack of action taken on them) dated March to 23 May 1945 in the Luftwaffenpersonalamt collection. This collection was at BA-ZNS Kornelimünster until the end of 2005, but I understand that BA-ZNS has closed and these records transferred to BA-MA Freiburg. This material was captured by the U.S. Army intact and taken to Paris where a USSBS/SHAEF microfilming team filmed in. The microfilm is currently in the 7000-series at the Garber Space Flight Center/NASM-Smithsonian in surburban Washington. After 1 April 1945, 14. Fl.Div. came under Luftflotte Reich, and I know with certainty that Luftflotte Reich forwarded a 65-page list of award recommendations to the Luftwaffepersonalamt in April 1945 and that this list is in this collection and in the microfilm. Short of spending a lot of money and time investigating this, you might just send an e-mail to Veit Scherzer who has examined all of this material.
14. Fliegerdivision
(FpN: L 60532)
Kommandeur:
Oberst i.G. Lothar von Heinemann (26 Jan 45 - 8 May 45)
Formation. (Jan 45)
Formed 15 January 1945 at Bersenbrück/30 km N of Osnabrück from elements of Gen.Kdo. II. Jagdkorps. Other sources give 26 January as the date of formation, which may be the official or effective date. Responsible for providing tactical air support for Army Group H along the northern sector of the Western Front under Luftwaffenkdo. West. Communications support provided by Ln.-Abt. 64.
Northwest Germany. (Jan 45 - May 45)
1 Mar 45: Stab still at Bersenbrück.
31 Mar 45: Stab transferred to Wunstorf near Hannover on or about this date.
1 Apr 45: reassigned to Luftflotte Reich this date.
9 Apr 45: subordinated: Stab and 2./NAGr. 6; Stab, I., II., III./JG 26; Stab, I., II., III./JG 27; NSGr. 20 and III./KG 200 with a total of 301 aircraft, nearly all of which were Bf 109s and Fw 190s.
2 May 45: Stab now at Drelsdorf near the west coast of Schleswig-Holstein after withdrawing across the North German plain during April.
--BHS1956Comment
-
Rk
Meanwhile I was told that the RK is a fake. I didn't expect it to be part of the group and didn't pay for it, so it was a nice addition. I guess Lange was given this after the war or even bought it. All other 1957 awards were part of the group and they look very nice.
It doesn't matter to me too much if he actually had the KC or DKiG or not since I am mainly interested in his Me 262 flights which are all confirmed and documented (flight log, Leistungsbuch, etc.). If he really didn't get the KC or DKiG he must have added the entries in the Wehrpass and Soldbuch himself. And since he is no longer alive, we won't be able to find out. In any case, he had an extraoridnary career (1939 - 45) with more than 200 combat missions ans 15 combat missions with the jet, flying from the German Autobahn at the end of the war. That is what is so valuable to me, the history of Hubert Lange and not his awards. I would have bought it even if I was 100% sure that he was not awarded the RK or DKiG.
I have one photo of him taken during his time with KG100. I can't remember if he is wearing the DKiG, but I'll check. I guess some period photos could help to find out if he had the DKiG or not as he was awarded it already in 1943 - if we believe the Wehrpass.
I'll check tonight.Comment
-
Hello BHS1956
Thanks for the interesting information regarding KC holders and 14 Fl. Div. On Luftwaffe.dk I found the information that KG51 also belonged to 14 Fl.Div. in spring 1945, which then would make sense.
I haven't heard of Veit Scherzer. Is he a member of the board?
I have visited the Garber archives several times and will sooner or late visit again. So, next time I'll take some time to find this list.
Kind regards
RogerComment
-
...yes, but to me (just my opinion) if the WP has fake entries, that calls into question the originality of the entire group. If the entries are false, I find it hard to believe that Lange himself did it given the stamping, authorizing signatures etc. They were put there to deceive. Again,just my opinion...Comment
-
Here is the Scherzer web site. If you click around, I believe you will find a Kontakt button or a way to send him an e-mail.Originally posted by Sturmvogel View Post
http://wehrmachtdivisionen.de/portal/
--BHS1956Comment
Comment