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    #46
    Kl

    Hello,

    For Peter u :

    Regrettably, this guard did not survive the end of the war much later. Prisoner in France, died on October 31, 1945 to Bruyeres. Reason of the death unknown. Here are the information of the Volksbund :

    <TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: .7pt; mso-padding-alt: 3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: #e5e5e5; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 36%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="36%">Nachname:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>
    </TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 64%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="64%">Hosszu <o></o>
    </TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: #e5e5e5; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 36%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="36%">Vorname:<o></o>
    </TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 64%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="64%">Johann <o></o>
    </TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: #e5e5e5; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 36%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="36%">Dienstgrad:<o></o>
    </TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 64%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="64%">Oberschütze <o></o>
    </TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: #e5e5e5; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 36%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="36%">Geburtsdatum:<o></o>
    </TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 64%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="64%">24.01.1909 <o></o>
    </TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: #e5e5e5; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 36%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="36%">Geburtsort:<o></o>
    </TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 64%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="64%"><o></o>
    </TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: #e5e5e5; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 36%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="36%">Todes-/Vermisstendatum:<o></o>
    </TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 64%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="64%">31.10.1945 <o></o>
    </TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: #e5e5e5; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 36%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="36%">Todesort:<o></o>
    </TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: whitesmoke; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 64%; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8" width="64%">Bruyeres <o></o>
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    Johann Hosszu ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Reillon (Frankreich) .
    Endgrablage: Block 1 Reihe 25 Grab 1516
    <o></o>
    You will find enclosed better one image of this guard.

    With regard to your remark relative to the documents, I think that every SS and even more specially the guards of camps destroyed quickly the documents which could carry them damage. It is never good to be in the camp of the losers ! For that reason, the guards of camp Soldbuch are very rare. Involving administrative documents, the Wehrpass are more current.

    Cordial greetings.

    Polux
    Attached Files

    Comment

      #47
      Kl

      Here is an image of the page 2 with the date of the birth which allowed the research on the site of the Volksbund.

      Interesting detail below of page: signature       of Paul Hoppe, commander of the camp of the Stutthof.

      Cordial greetings.

      Polux
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #48
        Originally posted by polux View Post
        Here is an image of the page 2 with the date of the birth which allowed the research on the site of the Volksbund.

        Interesting detail below of page: signature         of Paul Hoppe, commander of the camp of the Stutthof.

        Cordial greetings.

        Polux
        Hi Polux,

        Another interesting detail IMO is the fact that he was a Romanian Volksdeutche. Quite rare to find SB for Romanians in the German Army, and even rarer events to find a camp-guard.

        Excellent SB, and many thanks for sharing it with us.

        Cheers,

        Al

        Comment

          #49
          I had always thought the KZ camps were run by the totenkopfverbande, indeed the stamps seen here refer to TK units but the inclusion of Waffen-SS really confused me. Many of you know of the argument used by some that the W-SS had nothing to do with the camps as means of seperating them from the TK.
          So, what relationship to the W-SS did these camp TK units have? how did the command structure fit into that of the W-SS?
          Collecting German award documents, other paperwork and photos relating to Norway and Finland.

          Comment

            #50
            Hello Simon,

            It has to do with compulsory military service law in Germany. Because of the mobilisation of august 1939 also the KZ-guards became drafted in the army (wehrmacht,luftwaffe,etc), Kz-guard-duty didn't count as military service (totenkopf-verbande), something had to be done to keep this "special" (read criminals) guys out off the army. The waffen ss combat units like LAH, germania, etc wouldn't except this guys in their units either.
            Part of them, the young ones under the draft law went to the newly created Totenkopf division part of the waffen ss.
            And when their service was needed in the ever growing KZ-system after the occupation of Poland or their manor of service proved to be even under the level of the ss totenkopf infantrie regiments, the totenkopf verbande became part of the waffen ss also, to keep their personal out of the army and it could count as (compulsory) military service.


            Sb and other document to do with KZ-guards only mention waffen ss
            after 1939-40.

            Comment

              #51
              Originally posted by peter u View Post
              I have one of that bunch as well.

              They were on the market some years ago. All no really actif old luftwaffe member who became part of the luftwaffe wachbatalions guarding the luftwaffe secret weapons sites in the Harz mountains. All these guys where transfered to the ss in 1944. I think it was only a administrative transfer, the where only guarding the outsidefench and roads in the factory an baraks area, they had not much to do with the internal affairs of the KZ which was a job for the old sweats of the totenkopf standarte. For some reason the where transfered to "saksenhausen in 1945 as well.

              Like in the most KZ's the "outside " guard duty was done by army and/or no German units who where not ss-members, the internal affairs (like punisment regulations and torture was more a job for the real ss or sd members. The guarding of these camps was not an exclusif job for the ss, and it must be said "also the army units knew what was going on in these camps, masif hunger and crimes against humanity you could not look next. "Ich habbe das nicht gewust" was not an opion for these guys! I had a family member in such a camp it was nor run by the ss but crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity no matter who is doing them.

              What is the story behind these. What where they guarding in the Harz Mountains

              Regards
              Chris

              Comment

                #52
                Peter,

                I don't exactly know what you mean by the quote "it was only a administrative transfer". Every transfer is a adminstrative transfer. Wheater we like it or not, the SS camp quards (also those who were at first in luftwaffe or wehrmacht units) were members of the waffen-SS which means they fell under the SS juridiction and not longer under the wehrmacht or luftwaffe jurisdiction. So it is not just a adminstrative transfer but they had also have the consequences of being a SS member. Consequences as for instance SS regulations, SS courts etc.

                Best,
                Erich

                Comment

                  #53
                  Originally posted by Imperial-German View Post
                  What is the story behind these. What where they guarding in the Harz Mountains

                  Regards
                  Chris
                  Chris,

                  Heres a quick summary. They were guarding a V2 Rocket production installation built deep into the Harz Mountains near Nordhausen. The camp also goes by the names of Mittelbau, Mittlebau-Dora, Dora or Nordhausen. Mainly guarded by Luftwaffe personnel who were later transferred into the SS along with 10,000 other wehrmacht and Luftwaffe men in late '44.

                  G

                  Comment

                    #54
                    Originally posted by g hanson View Post
                    Chris,

                    Heres a quick summary. They were guarding a V2 Rocket production installation built deep into the Harz Mountains near Nordhausen. The camp also goes by the names of Mittelbau, Mittlebau-Dora, Dora or Nordhausen. Mainly guarded by Luftwaffe personnel who were later transferred into the SS along with 10,000 other wehrmacht and Luftwaffe men in late '44.

                    G
                    So the Wehrpass that Chris James has for sale is quite interesting? The fact that he was guarding V2 rocket production sites and also being a KZ guard must make it scarce. (if the wehrpass it is right of course)

                    Chris

                    Comment

                      #55
                      Kl

                      Hello,

                      For Al : here is an image of his Rumanian military record. Registration to March, 1943.

                      For Simon : vast and complex subject. I advise greatly the reading George H. Stein                       and Joseph Wulf.

                      Cordial greetings.

                      Polux
                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                        #56
                        Kl

                        Hello,

                        For Peter u : you will find enclosed an image of a early Soldbuch SS.

                        Interesting detail : no mention Waffen-SS on the stamp ;-))

                        Cordial greetings.

                        Polux
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #57
                          There seem to be a lot of KZ wehrpasses on the market. I have just checked 4 online dealers and in total there are 7 for sale. They cannot be that common surely.

                          Comment

                            #58
                            To necker and imperial german:
                            What I mean with a administrative transfer is that they were not involved in the "inside running of the Kz", they kept on doing their job like before guarding the outside of these Kz's. I even think they didn't wear ss-uniforms but I'am not sure on this point maybe someone else has the answer on this one.

                            Many collecters presume that these guys when they transfered to the waffen ss became "inside guards" for most of them this is not the truth. "Inside guards" are more scarce and intresting; they where directly involved with the crimes in the Kz.

                            Many collecters are fooled by this issue, they presume that they have an "inside-guard" in their collection but it isn't.

                            A few years ago there was a release of those "luftwaffe wachbatalion" wp on the market. The ones I have seen so far are ok for what they are "outside-guards" .
                            One has to consider that there were much more "outside guards" in a Kz!!!

                            My problem with this is that most of the dealers don't give the compleet information on there merchandise the buyers are thinking that it are "inside guards" but they are not!
                            Myself know that there is one ok "inside guard" sb for sale with an online dealer, the "mittelbau" and "sachsenhausen" versions are easly found with dealers off and online worldwide. Of course to see that they are ok we need images on this forum just like with all confirmations on authenticity.

                            Thanks Polux for proving my point with your nice example of an early stamp in a sb.

                            Comment

                              #59
                              Originally posted by polux View Post
                              Hello,

                              For Al : here is an image of his Rumanian military record. Registration to March, 1943.

                              For Simon : vast and complex subject. I advise greatly the reading George H. Stein                               and Joseph Wulf.

                              Cordial greetings.

                              Polux

                              Thank you very much for showing the Romanian Military Service ID. Quite an interesting career for this guy.

                              Many thanks again for sharing this very interesting piece of history,

                              Cheers,

                              Al

                              Comment

                                #60
                                A thought to the awards on Post 8 where we see the KZ stamp again.

                                According to this the man was awarded the EK2 in march 1944 by Himmler.... but he had recieved the Silver Wound badge in March 1943. In 1943 the statute was already in effect that when one recieved a silver wound badge the EK2 followed automatically.... so much so that Wehrkreises in Germany couls automatically award it to soldiers in their hospitals, without even contacting the guys unit to ask for authorisation.

                                Very, very unusual.... it may be an legitimate anomolly, but is technically not "Right". The award should have followed within days or weeks at most.. and the Himmler entry would get a bell ringing in my head...
                                Last edited by Chris Boonzaier; 01-13-2007, 03:01 AM.

                                Comment

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