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Hello Graham & Jungco,
Thanks Jungco for your posting yet again a very good sb example of a KL sb!!!
Graham, I don't want to sound like a teacher, but this is my point on the "ausbildungslager trawniki" subject-matter: your guy was not fit (mental or physical problems) to serve in combat unit in the waffen ss so he transferd to the KL system. What type of training would he do in december in Poland, winter shooting exercises? I don't thinks so. He was certainly not an instructor that I'am sure of.
So there must be an other reason why he transferd to Trawniki, this is a good subject-matter to investigate.
On the Auschwitz-wp this thread started with, if you did read my comments (and Iam sure ypu did) you know what I think about it.
Sorry Graham but, I don't like it and my mind is more and more made up about it, with all the good examples I have seen on this thread!
But if you think it is an OK example that is fine for me.
Why do you like this example which the least we can say about it, that it has some issues? You have so many good and honest examples in your collection!
And I hope I didn't offend you with my questions and doubts, because I still want to debate about that wp remember my words are not gospel.
Greetings
PeterComment
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Hello,
This morning I took a look again at the wp were this thread was started with and I'am glad to give my opinion on it again.
These are the things that I find problematic with this wp:
#1: the "als ss-sturmmann in die waffen ss übernomen" stamp; this means that there was some sort of prior service before he joined the waffen ss were he earned the rank of gefreiter (corporal) but there is no evidence in his wp. His prior (probabily whermacht service) should be written in his wp, just like we saw in the other wp's shown in this thread.
Remeber it is not a wp issued at Auschwitz but as with most examples at his own local wehrbezirkskommando, it is also not a "zweitschrift" either.
#2 the rank alteration is signed by a oberscharfuhrer with a name we can not identify with the Auschwitz camp, normaly it should be signed by an officer which name we would most likely would have been able to pin on the Auschwitz camp of Monowitz.
#3 the same issue with Hofmann Josef, you would probabily not find his name on the Auschwitz ex-guards list either.
#4 Hofmann J is a 47 year old "hilfs-arbeiter" this is to say the least not the highest qualification of laborer. So the option that he was a civilian working at the Monowitz factory's is unlikely because for this type of labor was done by the inmates. Monowitz was a chemical plant which needed a lot of specialised workers just like it would in this day and age, I don't see the point of having a low qualificated laborer (farm hand) on your site to control work done by inmates.
#5 the "this is a late war example" is a argument used a lot to explain dodgy looking militaria items of al sort. And I don't like this type of explanation, to make unlogical things look logical.
All these points make me very suspicious about this wp, it looks to me like the dodgy examples I have seen in the 90's: homemade upgraded to kl service grandfather wp's. The showed up on the Belgian militaria fairs in the late 90's just after the release of the "sachsenhausen" wp's . Ofcourse the Sachsenhausen wp's with also a Auschwitz citation were more disereable/valuable and to satisfy the collectors who were searching for Auschwitz related wp's a number of dodgy Auschwitz wp's were made by fakers and came on the market some time later.
I'am not claiming it is a upgraded wp but it looks like one to me.
To his advantage is that there are at least 2 type's of Auschwits stamps used.
And if it is not an upgraded wp, it still does have to much problems for me to feel comfortable with this wp.
Are there other collectors on this forum who agree with me or am I alone with my opinion on this wp?
And when there is a someone who can explain this wp for me and please not using the "this is a late war example" reasons, please do because I'am always willing to learn more about my hobby I so much like.
Greetings,
PeterComment
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Hi Graham,
You seem like a nice person to me and you have a very nice collection judging by the items I have seen.
But be ware!!!
To satisfy collectors like you in the 90's there were even dealers selling in Belgium compleet sets (4 or 5 items even framed up with some Kl money and a star of David if you wanted) with wp's so that you would have all the mayor KL citations at once.
This made collection very easy.
But like with al things to good to be true,...!?!
I can say to you I would not have one of those sets in my collection!
Remember those things were sold and are still out there in the collection sociaty.
So do has much research you posibly can about your fantastic hobby before you buy an item.
This is my advise to all you collectors:
Please remember these wp's are amongst the most easy ones to fake, and it has been done in the past.
PeterComment
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Auschwitz WP
Hi Peter,
With regard to the Trawniki entry in my WP. It is of course possible that the man was taken from Neuengamme to Trawniki to act as a guard for 8 weeks, and then on to Majdanek/Lublin for 12 days.
However, Trawniki was not just an SS training camp for new SS recruits. It was the main training camp for foreign volunteer KL guards, where they undertook 'abbreviated' military training. The rest of their training was in relation to KL guard instruction and training in the deportation of Jews. The training camp started in the Autumn of 1941 and was active for 2 1/2 years. By the time my WP man got there, it was only a few months from closure. You state he was certainly not an instructor and you doubt he was there for training, but there is no proof either way.
All I know is that a career guard, who up to that time had 2 1/2 yrs experience in KL and had been promoted twice within that time, had found himself taken from Neuengamme, to a KL training camp for 8 weeks, then to another KL 40KM away for 12 days, only to be returned to another main KL in Germany. Unfortunately, we will never really know why, but it is a subject that will continue to generate interesting debates and theories for years to come and that can only be a good thing!
Best Regards,
GrahamLast edited by SiPo; 04-06-2009, 03:55 AM.Comment
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Are there any entries on Pages 39-45?Comment
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Thanks Graham for your repley,
First I want to say that I'am glad you are not angry at me for posting my personal opinion on this thread.
And if you like that wp it is ok for me!!!
But I always stay away from items that have such great anomaly's.
And like I said before it has at least 2 different KL-Auschwitz stamps but I'am sorry to say that is the only positive point I see in this wp.
What I find funny is that it seems that Gary T, you, Barry and I am the only people that have read this thread and have an opinion on this wp.
Are you collectors afraid for posting your opinions?
Or do you guys not have an opinion on wp's with some problems?
In this thread I and everyone else had the chance to see some great examples of Kl related wp's and sb's so you people out there should be able to form your own opinion on this wp.
And it doesn't matter if you collect kl-wp's or not the same rules go for every other type of wp.
So can you please share your opinions with me.
And if you don't agree with me I have no problems with that either, and so it seems that is the same for Graham who is a great collector with his own opinion on items and not afraid for sharing them worldwide.
Thumbs up for guys like Graham!!!
It is always the best for everyone to hear more than one or two opinions on an item with some problems. We must all learn from each other.
Greetings PeterComment
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We can see in this thread that transfering from one camp to another was quite normal for KL-guards.
This had to do that these guys had a very low moral (let's face it they are criminals and/or mental patients!).
So problems with alcoholisme, theft, fighting,..etc were normal practice this is a fact for every rank in the KL-system even officers and campcommanders were punished with tranfers to other camps.
This did not prevent them from being promoted.
They are a special bunch in the German army system, no officers of active army units were happy to take former KL-guards in their ranks not even in the Totenkopf division.
For example ss-obersturmfuhrer Kantschuster an old sweat in the camp system was an alcoholic, so much even that he had severe braindamage and because of his mental state (drinking and than becoming very agressive not only at the inmates but also to his colleagaues, even shooting at them!)was transferd from one camp to another but this did not prevent him from being promoted to the rank of an officer!!!
Also Theodore Eicke the commander of all KL's was a mental patient.Comment
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Great thread, guys!
And indeed some great wp-sb!!!
A pity that they have become almost unobtainable for the moment...with those prices
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Hello Nico,
The good ones were always expensive.
In this thread I will not debate about estimates or value's that is something between the seller and the buyer; you have to make up your one mind what you are willing to spend on one.
If you want an example that you can every night go to bed and sleep on your two ears; is gone cost you a lot of money and networking to find one.
But I always will prefer such items, 100% original and no anomalies!
Rather than have a sheap one bought for a bargainprice wp or sb that always will have doubts about authenticity.
Otherwise you have to satisfy for an "outside-guard" they are easier to find and cheaper but not that intresting in my opinion.
To this moment I'am also still looking for a good exterminationcamp sb or wp but I prefer to have in my collection only to have one good example instead of 10 with doubts, the search continues for me and perhaps I w'll not find any for an affortable price but this still doesn't make me buy an example like the one debated in this thread.
PeterComment
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Kl
Hello,
Jungco : magnificent Soldbuch Au. I particularly appreciated the image of the page 19 with the stamp "Hochgebirgschule der Waffen-SS". I possess a Soldbuch with the stamp "Gebirgskampfschule Gebirgsjägerschule der Waffen-SS", Predazzo in March, 1945. The stamp of "Gr. Chef D" is also interesting. I think that signature of the Standartenführer is that of MAURER Gerhard. This Solbuch well shows the administrative side of the management of the concentration camps.
Peter and Graham : thank you for your articles. You will find enclosed some images of a group SB and WP KL very interesting whom possesses a friend collector (Richard). First of all the page 11: SS-Totenkopfsturmbann Sachsenhausen Oranienburg.
Cordial greetings.
Polux
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Kl
Hello,
Page 12 : Totenkopfsturmbann then Wachbataillon. Please pay attention in the last date mentioned to this page : in December 20, 1944. At the end of the active service ? Death ? Anything of it. The time to share a good meal with my family and you will have the answer
Cordial greetings.
Polux
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Kl
Hello,
Pages 26 and 27 : here is the explanation of the importance of the date of December 20, 1944. This soldier was simply executed by his companions for the following facts :
Laut Feldurteil des SS-und Polizeigerichts III Berlin (St. L. III 351/44) von 11.11.1944 wurde Otto Teschner, geb. 11.11.08, wegen Verbrechens gemäss § 4 der Volksschädlingsverordnung, verbunden mit fortgesetzten militärischen Diebstahl
sowie fortgesetzten militärischen Ungehorsams und wegen Sachhehlerei<O
</O
<O</O
zum Tode,<O</O
<O</O
zur Ausstossung aus der SS, zum Verlust der bürgerlichen Ehrenrechte auf Lebenszeit und zur Aberkennung der Wehrwürdigkeit verurteilt.<O</O
Das Urteil wurde durch Verfügung des Gerichtherrn am 15.12.1944 bestätigt.<O</O
Die Todesstrafe gegen Teschner wurde am 20.12.1944 vollstreckt.<O</O
In summary, here are the facts which are blamed him :
Continuous military theft
Military disobedience continues
Recel of material
The penalties :
Condemned in the capital punishment : dead
Expulsion of SS
Loss of the civic rights
The way by which this soldier was executed is not clarified.
Cordial greetings.
Polux
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Kl
Hello,
The group of my friend Richard also contains the Soldbuch. Here is an image of this soldier. Uniform Totenkopf.
Cordial greetings.
Polux
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Kl
Hello,
Here is an image of the page 2 of this Soldbuch.
Cordial greetings.
Polux
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