yes you are right Peter, but tell me how often WP were held in the soldiers pocket - 0% of the time.
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Hello
Also a wp of kia soldier was sent home to his family, imo this is also something special. The offical death certificat for the family that there son or husband is never coming home again.
Milcollector,
If you want items that were on a soldier when he was fighting and kia.
Do like me and collect identified shot through helmets with blood, hair and brain tissue inside they were most defently in their possession when fighting.
Cheers,
PeterComment
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Hello milcollector,
I don't know how it happend but some soldiers were taken pow with their wp in their possession.
And I know a wp is more an administration document used on the staff of a unit.
But I collect more with local intrest so I don't have the luxery to select wp or sb. I have to buy what comes along sb or wp.
Cheers,
PeterComment
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agree with you Peter. KIA WP are interesting items.
but I think I will pass on collecting helmets with brain tissue still inside !!
Good luck with that pursuit
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Actually they were in the company headquarters...in static positions this was usually located with the battalion train. I wouldn't want to tell the company Speiss he was in charge of a rear echelon base!Originally posted by milcollector View PostWehrpass have sat in a filing cabinet, normally in some rear echelon base.
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[quote=milcollector;1874987]I find wehrpass dull and boring.
Soldbuchs have seen the heat of battle, and been in the pocket of the soldier constantly.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I find this comment interesting, considering on another thread you say you 'would much rather have a soldbuch that is largely intact, rather than something that is falling to bits.'
I would say most soldbuch that have 'Seen the heat of battle etc,etc' will probably be falling to bits, given the effects of living in the field, being soaked to the skin etc, like the infantry man usually is.It suprises me that many actually survived for long at all.
cheers,Lynton.Comment
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According to your logic I must be damn lucky, because I have many soldbuch in my collection that have seen a good amount of front line action and are STILL intact and fairly good condition.
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Milcollector,
That is the right approach imo also if you just want to collect sb's generaly and care more about specific combatunits or awardcitations and you are not that interested in things like local history for example.
Cheers,
Peter
PS: The braintissue and blood has dried up in the helmets after more then 60 years.Comment
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Milcollector.
I'm sure you have..I'm not disputing the fact, but from experience, unless it's covered in fablon, paper items don't last long in the field in your combat jacket pocket.Even covered in fablon they still wear out after time.So, I do find it interesting how long Soldbuch remained intact, inside a jacket pocket, in those conditions for the long periods of time that some were carried for.Comment
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To add to that, the few I have in my collection to Soldiers who served for a long period of time are very fragile, and on the verge of falling apart, or have already fallen apart. Even one I have to a Soldier who served for only a short time has been water damaged. I would personnally expect this to a frontline Soldier,who let's face it, spends most of his time when in contact, on his belly, in the dirt/wet.Comment
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Hello Lynton,
Their is a differnce between tatty, messed, waterstained or pages/photo missing from a sb.
I don't mind tatty, it has been in a soldiers pocket so it should show some traces of wear even if they used a protective cover or wallet.
But when a sb has his photo ript out/messed about with or important pages missing, I don't want it in my collection either.
Also I find it disapointing when a sb has modern repairs done on it, for example with sticky tape that have ruined the sb.
Cheers,
PeterComment
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Soldbuch vs Wehrpass
Hi,
SB's and WP's are both very cool. However, some WP's have one ingredient that SB's just don't have: a list of the soldier's actual batttle engagements. I am blessed to have acquired around 30 interesting DAK or Afrika service SB's and WP's. Three WP's have attached, lists of the soldier's actual battle enagagements and their respective dates. Two are from Pzr. Rgt. 5 (21st Panzer Div.), and one is from a supply column unit's driver which supplied the panzer regiments up and down (& up & down, etc.) the North African coast from February, 41' to May, 43'!!!
I believe many SB's are misisng information (entries or pages) which complicates research. WP's were maintained with unit HQ's and therefore contain more thorough and direct information. SB's were kept with the individual soldiers. Their carried, worn condition is often worse and for security purposes, FP #s seem to be more common for unit Id. - at least in the latter part of the North African theatre.
This is particularly true with Luftwaffe Afrika SB's (pps 3/4 & ? are frequently missing) and we have to rely on FP #'s to obtain unit info. I've got a gorgeous SB from a para. in North Africa and its missing pages 3/4 & __ )! However, the saving grace is: a separate (replacement unit) entry for Ers.Btl.Koch and the FP # for Kampfgruppe Koch - Fallschirm HG in Afrika.
FP #s are nice, but unlike most WP unit entries, are not always entirely revealing. Cf. I do have an S/B with entries for Arty. Rgt. 190 (90th Leichte Div.). It also came with POW docs. The SB and a doc. reveal an FP # to Nebelwerfer Rgt. 71 (THE Abt. supporting Kampfgruppe Koch - Fallschirm HG). A seperate document also lists Neblwfr. Rgt. 71.
IMO, the Schiffer book: "Personal Groupings, Award Documents and Ephemera of Rommel's Afrikakorps", ISBN # 0-7643-2113-7 provides excellent examples of many DAK (or Afrika service) SB's and WP's and also importantly, how to read them and where to find key entries.
ChristopherLast edited by MilitaryCollect; 03-29-2007, 10:50 PM.Comment
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Hello Christopher,
Those lists with battle entries are not always 100% correct.
They are usualy the regiments/division battle citations but not the compleet unit was always engaged in that battle action.
An example if you have a wp from the 225 ID that was actif in the westfeldzug it has battle citations for almost the compleet westfeldzug but the facts are that only 3rd batallion IR376 was engaged in my hamlet (Stabroek) and the compleet division had only one day of fighting and that was on th 27th of May in the Vinkt area.
Another good example I have in my collection a wp from an early ss-Germania member it has the compleet battle citations for operation Barbarossa but at that time he was with the "werkstatt compagnie" not the most actif unit he probabily didn't participated in any combat action during that periode but he has those citations anyway listed in his wp.
Knowledge of (unit) history is the only thing you can depend on.
Cheers,
PeterComment
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And knowledge how things work in an Army during wartime..... You obvious seems to forget that every men has his duty, be it during combat or not. Fact is that the Werkstatt keeps the other guys fighting. Whilest the Panzers are in action, the're already repearing, whilest the Pz-crews rest during a combat-break, the're doing the repairing. And when the crews get some sleep at night, the're still doing the repearing. And when the enemy breaks through the lines, together with the Tross, Werkstatt is put in action as last reserve to kick the enemy out. It doesn't mather anyway, they were involved in the battle, maybe not as Pz-crew, but they were involved.Originally posted by peter u View Post
not the most actif unit is just to easy to say. You know your "braintissue and blood" but still have to do some learning about the "Werkstatt".
Last edited by Ypenburg; 06-15-2007, 06:01 PM.Comment
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Hello ypenburg,
Werkstatt and other logistic units participated in actif combat specially on the eastern front when their unit was in a "kessel" or when a red army counter attack did hit the rear.
This wasn't the case in the summer of 1941 for the ss wiking division.
Ofcourse logistic units are needed but you can't compare them with combat units.
You can dream all you want about mechanics, butchers, cooks, bakers, etc attacking Russian defensive positions in the summer of 1941.
But the truth is that they are repairing vehicles, preparing food,...etc in the rear.
Wp citations are given to the compleet division it didn't matter if you were in the firstline or the rear.
Cheers,
PeterComment
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