LdO-Numbers / PKZ-Numbers

[Dietrich Maerz]

...That we haven't yet been able to answer this question for sure just goes to show how little we really "know" about our hobby!

Exactly!

There are two aspects to our hobby:

- the pure collecting, i.e. having a piece in possesion
- the 'scientific' aspect, i.e. knowing all the aspects about a piece: history, material, manufacturing, time lines, oddities, ...

Really, this second aspect just started with Gordon Williamson's book in earnest and there is still a ton of 'grey area' out there.

For me, the second aspect is far more interesting and rewarding than the first one!

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

Dietrich, I agree with you 100%!

[Sonderkommando]

George and Dietrich,
If you are interested in the research side of things, then I think you are doing yourselfs an injustice by just assuming that the PK numbers on the Third Reich made Imperial EK's are just there because "nobody cared" what markings were on them at the time of manufacter.
In another thread, Hagwalther also has a "26" marked Imperial EK1 and there is numerous others I have seen over the years with PK numbers on them, all different manufacturers and different grades of the EK.

Serious research involves gathering all the facts and making an informed opinion, not just pooh-poohing anything out of the ordinary as in "the assembler carelessly put pins or rings with them on the crosses and nobody really cared" as George points out.....

I for one think there is a lot more to learn about these PK numbers and every bit of information helps. After all, Dietrichs original question was-
"I'm confused with some of the (evidently) contradictions in the use and interpretations of the PKZ-Number on awards. Maybe we can bring some light into this issue with our combined knowledge."

Regards,
Brett

[George Stimson]

Okay, but "P" numbers were, by popular belief, supposed only to be on officially awarded pieces. How could a 1914 EK be officially awarded during World War Two? (And I'm not saying that the "sloppy craftsman" scenario is the end all explanation -- just that it could be one explanation.)

[Sonderkommando]

Exactly my point george,

Maybe the PK numbers weren't meant for officially awarded pieces only. Maybe they were on replacement pieces as well. Look at the S&L KC's, the "4" marked pieces could have been replacement crosses and manufactered earlier than what we think, thereby going towards solving the "die flaw" timeline.........
We need to do proper research and not just dismiss things to suit our own needs.


Regards,
Brett

[George Stimson]

Brett

I'm not speculating to suit any need, I'm simply theorizing based on what I've read about the "P" number and "LDO" designations. If both sets of numbers could be officially used on any award (official award or replacement), as you suggest could be possible, what would the point be of having the two sets instead of just one?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Brett,

one thing so far can be said for sure:

The Praesidialkanzlei did not award EK1 or EK2 of the WW1 style.

I think we all can agree to that. So the pieces you showed us are very interesting and a part of the puzzle. They tell us two things for sure:

- they were produced for private re-sale only
- they were produced by someone who had a PKZ number

Now, did this someone know that he was not allowed or supposed to put the PKZ number on the piece? Or are we wrong with the assumption that ONLY PKZ-marked pieces went to the Praesidialkanzlei. Maybe that rule only applied to the RK and DK?

Or some companies had a very loose way of using the numbering system?

I venture to say that the PKZ numbers were introduced at the same time as the LdO numbers. Some used them, some not. Some used them on all awards, some did not use them at all for a long period of time (like S&L).

A mix up in rings is a very likely scenario IMHO.

However, the basic question stands: When was the numbering system introduced and what evidence it there to substantiate the date?

Dietrich

[Don D.]

Common parts. ie. pins, back plates etc... might have recieved numbers in anticipation of being award pieces but then were put into the commercial system when they weren't awarded after a certain time.

When was the last EK awarded for actions in WW1? They were still awarding them in the 1920s for sure. Perhaps they even awarded some in the 1930s.
Don

[Dietrich Maerz]

Common parts. ie. pins, back plates etc... might have recieved numbers in anticipation of being award pieces but then were put into the commercial system when they weren't awarded after a certain time.

Don,

that is for sure a very valid and logic point! Very likely scenario!

Dietrich

[Sonderkommando]

Dietrich,
I tend to agree that the PK numbers come into being around the same time as the LDO numbers. Let's hope we can get some more input by other forum members and try and work out a timeline as you suggested.

Regards,
Brett