1941 EK1 "Fur Raub und Mord"

[jules61]

Hi Gents!

What about these EK1......?
Russian Propaganda anti Nazis decorations....?
Period made...?

Thanks for yours help!

My Best!
Gian.

374_1.jpg

374_2.jpg

[Tony T-S]

The frame is copied from a Souval so I'm not sure it is wartime. It will be interesting to see what the response is.

[ben bijker]

I am still waiting for rock-solid proof these were period made.

I really don't see Russians under siege, with shortage of everything, wasting time and money to crank these out.
Just too hard to believe...

[Miro O]

Don´t forget, Ben, that the background story says, these were produced only in limited volume of 1.000 pieces to be pinned on dead bodies of german soldiers. I was working in propaganda business for 17 years, so I know that all what really matters is the huge number of everything you produce via as many channels as possible. Because the goal of propaganda is to catch as many people as possible. Living people, needless to say. But wow, this is "limited propaganda edition". Something like cosmic spaceship limited to carry (dead) tourists from Chicago to New York.
In my opinion, these crosses can be original only if Rudolf Souval was in fact Russian agent Souvalov, who damaged his frame die on Raub und Mord crosses, so the 3-flaw frames in fact postdate these ones. Lol.
Here is another cross that would nicely display with this one. Highly reccomend. Limited german prototype strike, offered on American ebay for 27 dollars per piece with more than 10 pieces on stock.

[Tony T-S]

Oh Yuck

[sanya13]

IMO not like this the piece
the front frame is very similar a after war Souval form /the pattern/ but IMO this the piece a "attempt" not real

[juoneen]

So jules61.....what can you tell us about what you know of this cross ...did the seller have any info he provided with it when it was scored?

I find it interesting that it has a non ferrous core....and the quality of manufacture seems very high. I feel confident you must be one of the few to own one of this example here....as if there were 1000 made, it seems to me most would have been buried if the story about them is true.
No one seems to have their finger on the pulse of this cross in this thread to date, so hopefully more information will surface to explain on the subject.

[Hank C.]

Many collectors much more knowledgeable than myself have already posted, but here's my take:

They're complete and utter trash, and were never produced by anybody in WW2.

There's quite a few threads on them already, and nobody has any solid provenance on any.

I know - that doesn't "rule them out". But really....IMHO they're trash, most suited for use as fishing weights.

best
Hank

EDIT: I did a search of the crosses forum using the term "Raub" / show threads. 17 results (threads) going back as far as 2003. Not going to post all the links, but it's easy enough to duplicate my effort and get as much info as the Forum has on these - both EK2 & EK1 versions.

Hank

[Chet Sowersby]

What Hank said.

Chet

[Ludwig]

Fantasy crap, IMO!

[AlikN]

There was a long discussion about this type of cross on one of the Russian forums, and everyone was saying that those crosses are most likely bad, but only one guy was trying to prove that those did exist, ...so long story short, less than a year ago in (ЦАМО РФ) I think it stands for Central Archive Ministry of Defense Russian Federation were found some wartime documents which prove that those were actually period made, and from what I understood the frames on second class and front frame of the first were used from existing crosses, just making a core for a second and core plus back plate for the first, so the frame can be from any maker, only the one specific core design is period made.
According to the document those were made by Political department of the Leningrad's Front.

At the end of the page paragraph number 3) described how the distribution had to be done, it was work intelligence service guys.

..."3)Distribution produce exclusively terrestrial methods, scattering small quantities 1-2 packet (2-4 Order) in one place, across all of the front line, in a prominent position (on the rock, on the crest of the trench, at the entrance to the building at the crossroads, and so on.)"....


Here is the link to that forum http://www.ak-group.ru/forum/showthr...=12148&page=20

[AlikN]

....

[AlikN]

Here is the picture (unfortunately don't have good shot of the reverse) of what period cross looks like, I don't know who is the maker of the frame, but it had W&L 100 marked ring on it, which in a way proves that crosses were disassembled and after they assembled back no one cared which ring goes where.

[AlikN]

...date closeup and another picture from that site.

[Miro O]

This cross has magical oomph, indeed. Always causes long debates. But...

1. The document you´ve posted, says (in crucial sentence) only: "You will receive ..... pieces of "order" Iron cross 1st and 2nd class with antifacist inscriptions on the reverse."
Apart from the clear fact, that this document misses the exact description of propaganda crosses, exact number of pieces issued (although the field for it is prepared), and has many handwritten corrections, thus resembling only concept, two more features are notable - the word "order" is in quotation marks and "antifacist inscriptions" are in plural.
During ww1, Brits were also supposedly producing propaganda "Iron crosses" with antigerman inscriptions. I am posting here the photo to remind you how they looked like. They only resembled Iron cross, weren´t the exact copies of it. And indeed, these had many different inscriptions, not one.
I believe that if they are real (I think there is no consensus even with these), the document order about them would looked precisely like this: "...you will receive german "orders" Iron crosses with antigerman inscriptions..."

2. I must admit, this document is an interesting hint, but still long way to be a stone cold proof. Because:

3. There is no way how someone - no matter how deadly motivated Russian komissar - could take Souval´s postwar frame and assemble it with propaganda core at the end of 1941. There is only one explanation - thread starter EK1 is not an original of a fake, but fake of a fake. Something really worth collecting, huh.

Miro