K&Q electron miscroscopy preliminary results- facinating

[tom hansen]

Hello-

The lab at ISU is going to email me all the data regarding the analysis of the K&Q EK2s compared to the K&Q RK and lastly the only fake I could find, a honor roll clasp. The results were stunning to say the least. The lab has the images posted on their website as well, which I will provide a link to when I get the email. Here are a few of the short answers.

1. K&Q RK paint- the paint on the K&Q RK is a chemical match to the period paint from the EK2 K&Qs with highest peaks in Calcium and phosphorous, with trace metals which I will show in greater detail later with exact percentages. The % of Ca and P in the EK2s was a great match for the RK. Further, the thickness of the paint and application was similar with all crosses. The fake honor roll clasp with the modern black paint did not share the peak Ca and P levels, showing it clearly different than the period K&Q paint. I did not have a modern fake EK for comparison. Mathias Zimmer and Drew provided the EK2s.

2. Frame EK2s- both EK2s were silver plated with a neusilber frame. THe composition was Cu, Ni, and Zn as expected. The silver plating was unexpected. The elemental composition of neusilber in the EK2s was identical.

3. Frame RK- Here is a shocker- There is RHODIUM coating which accounts for the frosting, in contrast to previous views this was a myth. The rhodium coating is an alloy of silver/rhodium and is applied in a plated type fashion. The core of the frame is made of silver, which varies in composition up to 95% silver, depending on what part of the frame is viewed, suggesting a non-uniform distribution of the "800" silver alloy, or simply that the silver content of "800" is a minimum which may be greater than 80%.


The guy said he could easily determine wartime "800" silver vs a modern "800" silver by the % of trace elements and the distribution of the alloy, making this an effective means of evaluating the frame of the rounder for this silver content and appearance as well as the presence of the rhodium "frosting" (previously thought to be a myth, therefore if the rounder is fake, the fakers would not have applied a rhodium finish). I will get photos and all the data here as soon as I can, but the weather is bad here and of course there is that football game tonight!

[VonLuger]

Wow! that's some interesting data...fascinating

[Lorenzo Brown]

Excellent post and research.

I think this is the way of the future for collectors.

[MH184]

Well done Tom I feel compelled to also expose my findings now also......well done


Kr

Marcus

Enjoy the game ! Is that American football or proper football .....joke guy's.

[Matt Starr]

have you got a name of the lab so I can find the pics? This could really solve some mysteries!
Regards
Matt

[Peter Wiking]

Excellent !

Cheers.
Peter

[Dietrich Maerz]

Tom!

This is a big step for all of us and will scare the living daylights out of the fakers! Next is the Rounder and this will close this issue once and for all - I hope!

Dietrich

[Terrence]

I have done EM work in hematology. Very interesting stuff. Not much EM work done in hospitals anymore. Great application of the methods to authenticating the expensive pieces. I am surprised someone hasn't done this before.

Best regards,

T

[meriksson]

Wow im,,,,,,,,,dont know what to say. Do any one think we can use this teknik to those dam L15´s EK´s in any way? I do want that <!--StartFragment --> ghost off my mind.

Mikael

[stogieman]

Fascinating.

Impressive bit of research Tom. Interesting where they can make the determinations of trace content. I wonder how much this will vary by maker and by time of manufacture? Would they have used the same "batch" of paint over what period of time for instance? Then, when a "new" batch was used, how much variance will there be?? This certainly opens up quite a few doors while also answering a multitude of questions.
My only question would be, how practical would this become as an authentication tool (with respects to costs) for the "average" collector who wants to own one of these RK's?
Or, will this (potentially) become the "standard" that sellers of RK's will have to aspire to in order to legitimize their wares?
I have no dog in this race, just fascinated by the research done here and what it will potentially mean in the future regarding RK's.

[Peter Wiking]

Do i need to say:
Flawed S&L RK´s ?
26 marked EK1´s ?

Cheers.
Peter

[Greg]

This is really interesting to me not only because of the research into crosses and the implications for fake ID, but also because my Master's thesis research in Archaeology was much the same process.

I analyzed trace elements of copper artifacts made by central US prehistoric cultures compared to trace elements of specific native copper deposits, to see if I could determine the specific origins of the copper in the artifacts, with implications for prehistoric trade. It worked great! I used neutron bombardment to activate and measure the trace elements, but I imagine the statistical analysis process was the same.

Neat!

Greg

[tom hansen]

I am getting the "raw" data by email in about a half hour and I will post it. The total cost was $550 for four hours on the machine, but it involved a little "leg work" in messing around to determine what to look for. I would imagine an evaluation of a rounder or a 3/4 ring would take half the time.


Looking at the composition of the period black paint, I think we can determine period vs non-period but I do not think that we would be able to identify specific manufacturers based on the paint. I may be wrong regarding this and am interested in testing some other items as well. I think the paint can be used to determine wartime vs non-wartime. The frames, oddly, can be identified as period vs modern based on the distribution of silver in the alloy, elemental composition, and the presence of rhodium.

[stogieman]

In the same vein....

.... would base-element silver content, trace elements etc. be able to be determined in a silver piece with no paint? (only patina?)
I'm thinking Imperial Flight Badges here.........
To me, $550 not a bad investment with what I see RK's going for these days.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Tom,

we also should put some oaks under the scope if the silver content works.... Or at least we should let people know that this is available. What is $ 250,- for a $ 15.000.- investment?

Oh,oh, I hear sweat running (including my own...)!!!

Dietrich