Juncker variations?

[Dansson]

I have been very intressted and keen collecting Junckers. So I have been wondering on how many different variations are there, and how do I recon the variations from one other?

Thank you!

[Douglas 5]

You had to pick this manufacturer ... the one that is the most involved maker there is . Research is still ongoing .... so depending on how far back you want to go and include WW1 type -and carry over frames etc .. you might be looking at 6 to 8 frames and a dozen cores even ?
Here is a start - just to give you an idea what you could be looking at .

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=396436

Douglas

[Dansson]

Thank you Douglas, I knew it was complicated with all the variations from all the year models but I did not know it was made as a 1870 model also. What about the world war 2 versions? I have heard about a long flaw and a three flaw and others something like that. What exactly are those and what about the cores? I have only one Juncker myself and it is in a poor condition, the Wideframe Schinkel with unmagnetic core from 1939. I have been looking for more Junckers but only found that one and I am curious on what models and variations I am looking for and if I could get them anywhere. Yet I have not been successful in buying or trading one for me.

Greetings from Finland, Daniel.

[sanya13]

Hí Daniel
here are the EK2 types

2 - C.E. Juncker

-WFS frame
-crunch-bead frame 3Flaw (non-mag. WFS core)
-crunch bead frame (mag., Juncker core) aka "full Juncker"
-long flaw frame (mag., "small RK" core) long flaw runs down the 7 o'clock arm beading strand
-long flaw frame (mag., "small RK" core) long flaw runs down the 7 o'clock arm beading strand mm "Z"
-crunch bead frame (mag., W&L core)
-crunch bead frame (mag., L/12 marked)
-common L/12 type frame (mag marked L/12)
-small frame ( dimensions about 43,5x43,5mm mag )

[Dansson]

Thank you Sanya! You own many crosses and have a great collection, so do you own any of these types? Becayse I would love reference pictures if possible!

[sanya13]

Hí Daniel
Unfortunately for me yet missing two type ,the crunch bead frame (mag., L/12 marked) , small frame ( dimensions about 43,5x43,5mm mag )but the other have

Unfortunately now I'm not at home ,but of course I will put up on the side if I will arrive

[Dansson]

Thank you Sanya, looking forward to see the ones you have!

[Douglas 5]

Hi Daniel :
As I see Sanya has given you the last set-up list that gives you a general break down of some frames and cores and with these some associated variants we know so far .
Amendments to this list are in the works as the study is still evolving . There are minor errors and omissions in this list . I have specificly been working on the 3 flaw frame and cores types and variants .
Something like 7 years ago no break down or list even existed .... possible and probably was all you got when some one ask - Is this a Juncker? -.
To get a proper and an 'understandable' better picture of Juncker and Juncker products one had to step back and do a historic timeline all the way back to 1870s
... which as you have seen in the link that Trevor had done superbly .

As to the number of cores used in the 3 flaw frames I have identified 7 ( including long flaw that makes 9 cores) so far with 3 core and 3 frame variations .
I am getting close to finishing the 'restructured ' chart and it will be posted soon with some new data and connections . It took a lot of time to own most of these samples I will be posting - but no
..... I do not own all of them ... maybe 80% ... it gets expensive .

A question you will ask is : 'Why so many types/variations ? ' Events described in the Deschler Book show at the start in 39 that a small group were asked to make a 'revised' Iron Cross design
as to where it seams Juncker did a large portion of the work . There were 3 cross development stages until the final version was approved .
These and brought forward old dies account for the many types and variations for this maker .

Will we be able to answer all the Juncker questions ? .... probably not !

Regards, Douglas

[boch_62]

Hi,
In an interview with Trevor we came to consensus on the classification of crosses EK2-1939 Juncker, presented it as follows:

1. WFS frame (Wide Frame Schinkel) + no magnetic so called: AWS core (more appropriate name: WFS-Juncker core)
2. WFS frame + magnetic so called: AWS core (more appropriate name: WFS-Juncker core)
3. crunch bead frame + no magnetic so called: AWS core (more appropriate name: WFS-Juncker core)
4. crunch bead frame + magnetic Juncker’s core with teardrop “9” (so called: Full Juncker)
5. crunch bead frame + W&L core – magnetic
6. crunch bead frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic L/12-core
7. common frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic L/12-core
8. common frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic Juncker’s core with teardrop “9”
9. common frame, unmarked + magnetic L/12-core
10. W&L cross, marked L/12 on ring
11. combined frame "crunch-bead + common" + magnetic L/12-core

Regards
Jarek

[Dansson]

Wow! Simply stunning how much effort and work you have done to investigate the Juncker, I thank you very much for your kind help, and if possible provide some pictures of the different Junckers?

Once again a big thanks to you all!

Daniel.

[streptile]

I fully agree with Jarek's list with a few exceptions.

First, "WFS core" is not a "more appropriate" name for "AWS core." "AWS core" is totally, 100% wrong and should not be used in my opinion. The core has no discernible connection to AWS.

Second, I would eliminate no. 11, because a cross with one frame on the front and a different one on the back is an anomaly, not a variant.

So I'd say this is the list of Juncker variants:

1. WFS frame (Wide Frame Schinkel) + non magnetic WFS core
2. WFS frame + magnetic WFS core
3. crunch bead frame + non magnetic WFS core
4. crunch bead frame + magnetic Teardrop “9” core (so called: Full Juncker)
5. crunch bead frame + magnetic W&L core
6. crunch bead frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic L/12-core
7. common L/12 frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic L/12-core
8. common L/12 frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic Teardrop “9” core
9. common L/12 frame, unmarked + magnetic L/12-core
10. Full W&L cross (frame, core), marked L/12

[streptile]

PS: This list is EK2s only. EK1s are a different ballgame.

[Dansson]

Thanks a lot, is it okay if I might ask about the first classes also? I am very happy to hear that the big collectors have used their time to explain me a little more about these beauties.

You have done a great favor for me, thanks to all!

Daniel.

[boch_62]

I fully agree with Jarek's list with a few exceptions.

First, "WFS core" is not a "more appropriate" name for "AWS core." "AWS core" is totally, 100% wrong and should not be used in my opinion. The core has no discernible connection to AWS.

[/LIST]

I fully agree too with Trevor but I know that many collectors "out of habit" uses the name "AWS" (which is why I wrote "so called"), and even a lot of time will pass before turns to the name of the WFS-core


Jarek

[ChrisS5917]

Hi,
In an interview with Trevor we came to consensus on the classification of crosses EK2-1939 Juncker, presented it as follows:

1. WFS frame (Wide Frame Schinkel) + no magnetic so called: AWS core (more appropriate name: WFS-Juncker core)
2. WFS frame + magnetic so called: AWS core (more appropriate name: WFS-Juncker core)
3. crunch bead frame + no magnetic so called: AWS core (more appropriate name: WFS-Juncker core)
4. crunch bead frame + magnetic Juncker’s core with teardrop “9” (so called: Full Juncker)
5. crunch bead frame + W&L core – magnetic
6. crunch bead frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic L/12-core
7. common frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic L/12-core
8. common frame, marked L/12 on frame + magnetic Juncker’s core with teardrop “9”
9. common frame, unmarked + magnetic L/12-core 7
10. W&L cross, marked L/12 on ring
11. combined frame "crunch-bead + common" + magnetic L/12-core
Regards
Jarek

As presented in the quoted text, would someone please post a representitive image of any cross described in lines number 6, 7, or 8? I am interested in seeing the hallmark.

Also, thank you Jarek & Trevor for your work in memorializing this baseline information. Your posts are great (and greatly appreciated) "teaching moments."