RK KvK without Swords

[Bob Hritz]

Here is one I have. It weighs 36.41 grams and measures 54.05 mm wide by 61.22 mm tall which includes the eyelet, but not the ribbon loop. It has the very faint flaws to the right side of the swastika background.

I wanted to trade it for the swords versions, but the collector said it did not match Gordon Williamson's illustrations.

I would appreciate knowing more about this cross. The circumstances of getting it leads me to believe it is a wartime made piece.

Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

Central sections

[Bob Hritz]

Different lighting

[Bob Hritz]

Marking 1 900. The 1 has the bottom foot.

[Laurence Strong]

Looks good to me. Same as mine.

My scans are a little smaller than yours, however it has the same flaws and it was vetted prior to purchase by Gordon Williamson amongst others....

Cheers
Larry

[MH184]

I don't personally observe any problem with yours, Bob; perhaps I'm missing something?

However, my formerly owned exmple - I sold it a month or so ago on this very Forum - is pictured in Gordon's ''KVK'' book three times and you can hardly tell it is the same example.


Kind regards,

Marcus

[mloppkit]

Hi Bob, Nice original 2nd pattern Deschler with the weight spot-on and distinctive bent-leg '9' flaw. As discussed in previous threads, the KvK RK weight difference issue is easily explained. Examples on the WAF tells us that Marcus Hatton's and stukapilots 'earlier' versions weigh in at around 33.8 grams and the 'later' version at around 36.5 grams. Here is the early 'light' on the left and later 'heavy' on the right. see this link for more information and comparison photos: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=RK+KvK&page=2 Gordon Williamson has no problem with both first & second pattern Deschlers and the 2nd pattern seems to be much rarer.

[Bob Hritz]

Thank you all very much. I try to very diligent and could not find anything wrong with this cross. I am just dissapointed that it was questioned and a trade fell through. I certainly hope that the day comes when each variant is properly analyzed as has been done with Dietrich' s publishing company.

Bob Hritz

[mloppkit]

Hi Bob,

Hopefully Dietrich Maerz will deal more with the two Deschler RK KvK's without swords when his book on the War merit cross 1st Class & Higher Grades is released. Gordon Williamson has indicated he will explain more about them when the next updated version of his book is released. It was almost 10 years ago in 2005when Lawrence Strong posted pictures of his excellent 2nd strike cross complete with its textbook case according to Gordon Williamson which prompted some fairly intense investigations. A search on the WAF provides plenty of information on these RK KvK's, these two threads are just an example.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+swords&page=5

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=rk+kvk+swords

[Laurence Strong]

Hi Bob,

Hopefully Dietrich Maerz will deal more with the two Deschler RK KvK's without swords when his book on the War merit cross 1st Class & Higher Grades is released. Gordon Williamson has indicated he will explain more about them when the next updated version of his book is released. It was almost 10 years ago in 2005when Lawrence Strong posted pictures of his excellent 2nd strike cross complete with its textbook case according to Gordon Williamson which prompted some fairly intense investigations. A search on the WAF provides plenty of information on these RK KvK's, these two threads are just an example.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+swords&page=5

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=rk+kvk+swords

Wish my pictures had made the jump between servers....unfortunately not one picture of mine made the jump.....



Larry

[Peter J.]

Michael, I made a search with "KVK AND RK And Weight" and 21 threads appeared. I must say I'm flabbergasted by the way "consensus" has been developed over the years. Gordon Williamson in 1997: there were only one original Deschler RK d. KVK with swords, allegally all the examined pieces had provinance and a weight of 42,3-42,4g, all had the "1" to the left and the "900" to the right. All the "fake" Deschler dittos he had examined were around 38g and had the "900" to the left and the "1" to the right. Such a variance in weight is almost inconceivable in a single piece striking, where the low numbers struck suggest that all or nearly all would have been made in a single production run.

As far as fakes of the RK d. KVK w/o swords are concerned, again all genuine pieces examened featured the markings in the order 1 900 as opposed to 900 1, and weighted in att 33,8g. Suspected copies which were weighted came in a around 28g, though one was noted as light as 23g.

I've made a short summary of the interesting parts of the discussions previously mentioned, please give them a moments thought: to be followed

[Peter J.]

"04-03-2002, 10:33 PM: Its difficult to eplain verbally, somewhere I have some scans of originals with the differences marked. They are stored on one of many dozens of CDs, but I'll try to track them down for you.

Gordon"




09-29-2002, 09:31 PM: I am sure there are good pieces out there, and they are nice to have in a collection. What seems strange, as Jody Belthram once noted, is that they just started poping up all over the place.

I went to the MAX show over the weekend, and easily saw at least 4 or 5 in the east hall alone. I would be cautious if buying, and suggest checking Gordon's information about this medal. The forensics of weight, sword and oakleaf placement, thickness, and measurements are very important.

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#8

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The correct weight for a Deschler RK of the KVK without Swords is around 34gr, so 33.8 is about right for weight.
__________________________________________________ ____________

2005
Gordon Williamson: It is definitely looking as if there are two distinct weight groupings for the Deschler RK. It would only take a fraction of a difference in the thickness of the silver "blank" placed into the die to give a slight difference in weight. Published weights so far are between 42.3 and 42.9gr. (The latter for an original RK of the KVK in Gold ).
I don't know how much weight of Gold was used in the plating process but presume it would be fairly minimal.

It now seems though that there are originals with a 2-3 gr lighter weight, some of which have an identifiable die flaw.

The existence of the Gold RK of the KVK was officially announced by an alteration to the original Institution Order on 8 July 1944.
It states the Golden Cross "...es gleicht in Größe und Prägung dem Ritterkreuz des Kriegsverdienstkreuzes", so it is clearly logical that they would simply use existing strikings and add a gold plating and that then the Gold pieces would weight pretty much the same as the Silver, attested to by the weight of 42.9gr for the Gold piece mentioned.

Unfortunately this doesn't help date the lighter weight RK with die flaw, because the few pieceswhich were gilded could have been actually struck any time from 1940 and taken from old stock, but it does seem as if those lighter weight pieces with actual documented provenance are 1944 awards, which would suggest the heavier pieces as earlier, the lighter pieces later.

Given the very low numbers awarded it would seem likely production runs were low. I'd guess no more than three batches of a hundred or so, so we might have heavier pieces - no flaw, lighter pieces-no flaw, then lighter pieces with flaw after the die was damaged.

I do hope we can get some more data on weights from original pieces in collections.
__________________________________________________ ________________

I know Internet has provided a lot of info over the last 15 years, but +50 years after the war, Gordon for some reason viewed the lighter 38g version as a fake (the weight difference being one argument). Only 8 years later he doesn't only accept the 38g version as original, he also raise the "one run"-theory to 3 batches and the existence of heavier pieces - no flaw, lighter pieces-no flaw, then lighter pieces with flaw after the die was damaged. More to follow:

[Peter J.]

There's a book allegedly in process about this very medal by Gordon Williamson who did the work on Iron Crosses and Knight's Crosses which was extremely faulted and poorly researched ( unlike the much anticipated ) work by D. Maerz!

While one publication cost collectors countless thousands of $$ due to mis-information, I'd like to know what to look for in an original medal of this sort PRIOR to a new book jacking up the value of this rare award.
__________________
Regards,
Dave
__________________________________________________ _______________

06-02-2007, 05:02 AM: I just now realized there seems to be 3 different fonts of the '900'!

For such a RARE award, it makes one wonder; why?

I think that we have the 'base' of a rare (lately) good go-around regarding, materials used, flaws and demand......

The pausity of pictures of these Crosses being awarded or in wear adds to the question of 'why' so many varient examples[FONT=&quot]
__________________
Regards,
Dave

__________________________________________________ ______________


06-10-2007, 10:31 AM: Gordon has replied that the flaws on the "3" and lower reverse arm were "progressive"- that is to say they were not evident on the earlier Deschler Crosses but began to appear on the later ones. Stan.

__________________________________________________ ________________

06-10-2007, 07:02 PM: Progressive???? The information that I am receiving is that there were TWO different die and a distinct weight difference resulting.
__________________
Regards,
Dave


__________________________________________________ ____________

06-12-2007, 05:17 PM: I have just received a pm from a former member of this forum who states that the flaws were not progressive at all. He contends that Deschler had two dies- The first produced the heavier (43,3g) thicker crosses and the later produced the thinnner (38,5g) crosses. This later die had the flaw in the "3" and on the lower reverse arm.

He also states that the wreaths and pebbling differ between the two types.

Just for your info.

Stan
__________________________________________________ ___________

This has been quite a turn of events, but all I see is words with no actual backup. Stan, who is this Mr x with the devine knowledge of two dies? As for Gordon's changing opinions, after 12 years we still haven't seen those images that feature the differences. The two individuals that IMHO brought some serious questioning to the table (Dave Kane R.I.P. and Tom Hansen expelled) are no longer in this equation, but perhaps someone else can contribute with some serious input for discussions.

cheers
Peter

[mloppkit]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+swords&page=5
Wish my pictures had made the jump between servers....unfortunately not one picture of mine made the jump.....

Larry

They made the jump, just not attached to the text correctly.........

[mloppkit]

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