Manufacturers of the Grand Cross

[U-Boot Kapitan]

1939 Grand Cross Case

Thanks for your information Dietrich,

It's much appreciated and very interesting.

What do you think of the actual case with my cross? Would you say this is a definite period made piece due it being an almost twin with the RK des KVK cases?

Many thanks,
Jay

[AlikN]

In my opinion S&L had their own dies, and not a Juncker piece on their display, and your cross Jay I think is one of the S&L pieces.

Also there is a Zimmermann '39GCs that were found in burned Zimm.Horde with other period awards.

L/13 frame needs a closer look to see if there is any Juncker flaws, not sure yet if whole thing made by Juncker and only marked L/13.


If other companies as we see made GCs before the sales were prohibited, they must had some kind of authorization to do it.

Is there any document that saying that Juncker the ONLY authorized maker?

[Leroy]

I also believe now that the GC posted by 'U-Boot Kapitan' is an S&L product, based on the styling, frosting style, paint and font used in the dates. But whether it is or isn't may never be known for sure. It would be very hard for me to believe that, at the 1941 trade show in Leipzig mentioned earlier by Dietrich, S&L would have been displaying awards made by other manufacturers. This is especially so as in that exact same specific display section, it exhibited a Knights Cross and a Knights Cross with Oakleaves, both of which are products we know that it did, in fact, make itself.

The GC owned by Fred with the Meybauer "L" number appears to have a genuine Juncker core, but a frame which is not by Juncker. That it is marked on the loop rather than on the cross makes me think it may be a piece made before March, 1941, to which a correctly marked loop has been added by the factory post-March, 1941, to comply with the requirements for commercial sale, even though that "window" for commercial sale of marked pieces of this grade would only have been from March, 1941 to November, 1941.

There is so much we do not know and are unlikely to ever be able to "prove" through documentation. We confirm (or reject) RK's by what we see in alleged actual award groups or findings at Schloss Klessheim, and not by any records from the PKZ, and the reason we do that is because there aren't any records from the PKZ which identify all the specific manufacturers of such pieces. There is certainly no LDO "list" of makers of specific pieces to help us, either.

Although I believe absolutely in ongoing research, and in fact engage in it every day myself, I honestly believe that we are "too late" to figure out, with any degree of absolute confidence, many of the intricacies of badge and award manufacture and marketing during the Third Reich.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Is there any document that saying that Juncker the ONLY authorized maker?

If you are looking for something signed by Dr. Doehle saying "Juncker is the only AUTHORIZED maker - no. Such a thing does not exist for any order or medal of the Thrid Reich, all we have is circumstantial evidence.

Williamson says so w/o saying where he got that from. Nimmergut says so without saying where he got it from, Klietmann (not Kleitmann ...) says so w/o any source. Most likely the two frist copied form the last.

However, the presence of only Juncker Grand Crosses in Klessheim is enough for me to believe in the "Juncker only" producer for pieces with the intend to be awarded.

I do not doubt that other companies could have made and most likely made the Grand Cross, mainly for display and museums - but only before October 1941. I also think that no visitor of the trade show in Leipzig could have said "That is not an S&L - that is a Juncker!" - so S&L might have taken the risk.

But I do not know and we can all speculate until the cows come home.

@ Jay:
I can't say whether that is a good one or not. All I can say is that it is not a Juncker.

@Leroy:
I didn't find the Zimmermann GC thread. Where they marked more than just "800"?


Dietrich

[Leroy]

@Leroy:
I didn't find the Zimmermann GC thread. Where they marked more than just "800"?
Dietrich

I didn't mention the Zimmermann GC. I believe 'Alikn' did.

I understand that "e-medals" is selling a GC core "from the Zimmermann hoard": https://www.emedals.com/Pages/Direct...s.aspx?id=3940

[Dietrich Maerz]

Well, I am always fixated on you ....

There is not a lot one can say about that core.....

[Leroy]

Well, I am always fixated on you ....

I am honored......

[AlikN]

Here is the only picture of Zimmermann GC that I have and it's restored cross from Zimm.Horde, DN sold a few of those from a burned horde all in rough shape, hard to tell from that picture, but it looks unmarked.


I am not familiar with work of Nimmergut and Klietmann, but Gordon W. in his book talking about Juncker, but in all of his pictures showing S&L crosses and there is one picture of postwar Souval - no real Juncker cross in that book.


In my opinion assumption that Juncker was only maker of GCs was based on not enough knowledge, only marked and most common crosses everyone saw L/12 marked LDO copies from Juncker and not having crosses of two different makers in hands at once to compare people assumed they look close enough to be made by one company.

And the thing that the only L/12 marked LDO copies were found in Klessheim - to me doesn't make it the only authorized maker, other companies made GCs and they wouldn't do it without authorization and if other companies would be making them only for the museums we would see their GCs there in museums, they made GCs for their store displays and in hope that recipients will get one from them also. Knights Crosses that found in Klessheim were not from all the makers, it doesn't make others not authorized, ....and for some reason in Klessheim there were no actual award type 800 marked Junckers (btw maybe an award type Juncker is unmarked, I haven't seen one yet with 800 mark only, but there is unmarked Juncker looking cross in DN's second catalog.), so it looks to me that most of assumptions about GCs are based on lack of knowledge.

[Leroy]

Here's the important part (at least to me): Based just on the evidence of what we see, it appears that Juncker was, in fact, the "official supplier" of these pieces to the PKZ for "award" purposes.

I don't understand why we get our "tits in a wringer" over any of this. There was only one, ever, awardee of the GC. We're not talking about something ever expected to to be like EKII's or EKI's or even RK's. Very clearly, the PKZ didn't need some steady supply. Goering could have had anything he wanted (and probably did commission all sorts of exotic and very expensive pieces to suit his tastes - he did for everything else). The whole point is that the PKZ decided to have it's small stock of pieces for potential award made by the Berlin-based Juncker. Who knows why. Probably Juncker had the "in" with the PKZ for all sorts of stuff (just like Schwerin - which never had a PKZ number or LDO number, either) had the "in" to design and produce the first wave of KM badges. They were just government contractors with good contacts.

None of this precludes manufacture of pieces by others. Other German manufacturers (for advertising purposes if nothing else) wanted to be able to say they made one, too. It was just a simple business decision, fueled by business ego and a feeling that if you showed potential customers that you made one, too, you were a "player" (and patriotic, too!). I very much doubt if any of them made any real direct profit at all from these pieces. Who knows if any were even purchased - probably not. Just used for displays and exhibitions.

The end result, though, is that we have contemporay copies, made by perfectly "good' companies, we can collect if we are fortunate enough to find one. Most people won't ever spend the money to find a "real" Juncker piece (and even if you did, it has no "hands-on" connection whatsoever to Goering, who certainly never saw or touched it). But a "purist" will demand a Juncker (and nothing wrong with that!)as being the only "real" type. I'd love to have one, too....but I'd be perfectly content with one which I personally believed probably came, contemporaneously, from S&L, or Meybauer, or Zimmermann.....

It's all just history, which we collect for the love of it. Everything else just revolves around money.

[Dietrich Maerz]

That there is a lack of knowledge about the GC is evident by the amount of crosses out there and the nonsense written about them.

That there were more makers before the LDO and the October 41 recall is pretty clear. The crosses were even made and displayed all over the place before one was awarded (Uniformenmarkt). Those, if made of silver at all, can only have a sliver stamp since no LDO or PKZ was in existence at that time.

All these makers were unauthorized because there was no authorization process since there was no order form the PKZ.

Then Göring got one and even the most positive thinker in Germany would have seen that there will be no flood of Grand Crosses in the future. After the prohibition, it was over anyway.

There is one invoice from the PKZ to the Museum Strassburg with a Grand Cross on it, dated 1943. Only the PKZ had them officially and only those from Klessheim with the red presentation case are the official ones. And they are all Juncker and there should be no need to explain again and again why they are all marked with "L/12".

Possible other makers, such as Zimmermann, were most likely early and all of them stopped producing after October 1941, most likely earlier. Why should they produce something they were not allowed to sell and chances getting an order for more than 4-5 (if at all!) were slim?

I am not familiar with work of Nimmergut and Klietmann, but Gordon W. in his book talking about Juncker, but in all of his pictures showing S&L crosses and there is one picture of postwar Souval - no real Juncker cross in that book.

It is a general problem that many in the English-speaking world are not familiar with the German literature and documents. But not knowing about it doesn't make it irrelevant or go away. I think it would be not serving the hobby well to say, Klietmann doesn't know what he is talking about (He worked at the PKZ, by the way). And he said Juncker was the only one.

That with Williamson is exactly what I said earlier: nobody really knew how a good and genuine Juncker GC looks like and what the tiny fingerprints are. So they substituted that lack of knowledge with other crosses or some stories about all kinds of makers and special made GC for Göring.

The Zimmermann crosses are nice for a damaged example. But they are not "official" and most likely pre-1941.

Dietrich

PS: Just saw Leroy's post and that is exactly what I think also.

[AlikN]

At the time when they were made by those companies, no one could possibly know how many recipients would be there, one , five or ten, for example with a very low number of 1813 GC recipients there was an order of a 100 pieces from whoever was in charge of awarding, with 1914 GC and only five winners there are crosses from other companies and photo evidence of not an award type in wear.

[U-Boot Kapitan]

1939 GK case versus RK KVK case

Thanks for all the input guys... It's much appreciated.

Here are a couple of shots of original RK des KVK cases to compare with...

[U-Boot Kapitan]

Close up...

[U-Boot Kapitan]

The GK case to compare...

(I'll get the set out again soon to take some fresh pics.)

[GeneralThomas]

....

Hello all, i thought that only 1 Grand Cross was awarded and manufactured, and the only other ones that existed were copies? Would someone please help me out?