Spanish Cross - Unknown Maker(s)

[Brian S]

Look at Deumer, Zimmerman...

Here's a similar German-Spanish Cross marked L55 - spuriously I assume.

As cej asked earlier, are these the only examples that has the swaz with the 3 cut-outs?

German-Spain Cross, not Spanish...

[streptile]

Hi Jacques,

I tend to think, even if I've yet absolutly no proof, that these crosses were produced by Godet.

Let me bring this up again since it seems to have been lost in the shuffle. Do you think it was Gebr. Godet, or J. Godet und Sohn who might have made this type of Spain Cross?

[Brian S]

Good question!

[streptile]

Hi Brian,

Thanks

Do you think it's possible this one under discussion here was a Gebr. Godet product, and therefore not the same design as the J. Godet?

[Brian S]

Hi Brian,

Thanks

Do you think it's possible this one under discussion here was a Gebr. Godet product, and therefore not the same design as the J. Godet?

Absolutely anything is possible, but in this hobby it has to be verifiable. Been burned enough in the past not to make mistakes in the present or the future whenever possible.

I only have confidence in the ones I can verify. That's why I have been concentrating on the SC w/Diamonds eagle to one that might be questionable.

Let me ask you this! Would you expect Gebr. Godet to produce a SC that did not carry their mark? I haven't spent enough time on the Godet Imperial items to know whether either Godet was in the habit of producing stock without their MM. In other words, is it reasonable and to be expected that either Godet firm would as a matter of normal habit produce stock without a maker marking?

[streptile]

Would you expect Gebr. Godet to produce a SC that did not carry their mark?

I'd say that's very possible. All their early awards were unmarked, including early EKs and other important awards.

I very much doubt Gebr. Godet made almost any of their awards, so even if this were a Gebr. Godet piece, that would not necessarily answer the question of who made it. But it would be good to know, and to be honest it would surprise me if Gebr. Godet did not supply the Spain Cross.

[Brian S]

Absolutely agree they would have carried somthing. You have any evidence of other maker's product that Godet marked as their own? Juncker was the overwhelming supplier of the Spain Cross (PRE-LDO. The L/12 Spain Cross is much more rare then the CEJ). You then see mostly Deumer/Meybauer IMHO. Very possible one of these (including Juncker) in their unmarked version could have been a Godet (or other) supplied cross.

[streptile]

Absolutely agree they would have carried somthing. You have any evidence of other maker's product that Godet marked as their own?

Tons of it.

In my opinion Gebr. Godet's most famous awards, such as the German Eagle Order series, all the Red Cross decorations, and the Iron Cross series including Knight's Crosses and all oakleaves, were made by CF Zimmermann, but sold by (and later marked for) Godet. At some point Gebr. Godet sourced their EKs from BH Mayer and also had them marked L/50.

Gebr. Godet's DKiG and DKiS were also made by someone else in my opinion, but marked for Godet.

I'm not 100% sure Gebr. Godet made any of their own high awards.

[Brian S]

L/50 oaks pattern was all theirs only and very rare and seldom seen. Zimmerman would only be a good suggestion for the SC if you believe Godet's primary purpose was to have it but essentially market it only sparingly in the LDO period. Zimmerman, and do not confuse this with collector market price, one of the rarest SC's.

Your comment "later marked for Godet" leads me back to the thought if they sold it, they marked it, which they didn't... Which leads me to believe they did not create their own or they would have marked it...

Unless they carried another maker's marked/unmarked SC. Most likely to me. But chose not to mark it? Is that likely for Godet when their Diamonds version was very heavily marked???

I have believed that because they produced the Diamonds version it simply wasn't "necessary" for them to step down to the mediocre versions below Diamonds. Present yourself, Godet, as the "top" awards maker. Which the Oaks certainly were.

[streptile]

Hi Brian,

I didn't suggest Zimmermann for the SK; I only stated that Zimmermann made many of Gebr. Godet's other awards. But G. Godet sourced from other makers too, viz. Mayer and whoever made their DK, which was almost surely a third company.

Your comment "later marked for Godet" leads me back to the thought if they sold it, they marked it, which they didn't.

Gebr. Godet's awards that were manufactured by other makers (Zimmermann, Mayer etc.) were marked by the manufacturer for Godet, which is specifically why I wrote "marked for Godet." I'm not sure if G. Godet marked anything themselves. And they supplied plenty of stuff with no mark at all.

Unless they carried another maker's marked/unmarked SC... But chose not to mark it? Is that likely for Godet when their Diamonds version was very heavily marked???

I have believed that because they produced the Diamonds version it simply wasn't "necessary" for them to step down to the mediocre versions below Diamonds.

The Diamonds SK was made (and marked) by a totally different and unrelated company, J. Godet, so really can't be used here for comparison purposes in a conversation about Gebr. Godet awards.

I find Gebr. Godet an intriguing possibility here.

[Leroy]

These are important observations, Trevor, and I agree with you fully on them.

[Brian S]

To conclude you might say G. Godet is one of several companies that might have produced/marketed the "Unmarked"/"Unknown" SK. That is of course if you believe that version to be a wartime example. It is certainly many feet above any of the "obvious" fakes. But experience tells us that's a dangerous road to travel...

J. Godet, I believe, would have marked their SK if they produced one but might have simply carried someone else's.

[Leroy]

I realize that the "unknown maker" SK is not the same as a Deumer SK, but I hope that the relationship between Godet and Deumer (via Herr Conze) can be more fully explored. In the Ludenscheid Museum, the RK on display as being made by Deumer is a "Zimmermann/Godet".

[Brian S]

Any Godet (either of the two) Reich catalogs showing a Spain Cross been shown here? I can't find a thing.

Except this and I'm pretty sure that's a SK in there! Not quite good enough to spot die flaws.

[jwburchell]

Since opening this thread, a fair amount of feedback; knowledgeable study and observations based upon that have been expressed and collected here - which forms a good reference for collectors regarding the so-called "unknown" makers of the Spain Cross awards.

At this point, is it possible to perhaps make a firm or qualified determination as to whether my Spain Cross, Silver Class with Swords, is possibly a period original by one of the "unknown" makers (albeit with a fake Juncker mark added - as per postings in the other thread referenced at the beginning)?