Kc by Meybauer

[tom hansen]

But Brian,


I would say that Pieter and Detlev, if not "having seen it all", have seen more than the rest of us will see in a lifetime. Therefore, in the existing universe of information regarding RKs, their opionions regarding these pieces relies on experience accumulated in the evaluation of hundreds of RKs. The fact that both Pieter and Detlev are not big proponants of these pieces is not damning, but is certainly not good.

The burden of proof regarding these items is upon those promoting the piece in question. Until further information becomes available, there is not definitive evidence to support the labeling of these items as wartime, as there no pieces with which to compare and there is no manufacturing documentation nor pieces with rock solid provenance.

[Brian S]

But Tom,

I am not a 'leaner'. You are right that Detlev has seen more than I will see in my lifetime, most likely, but you never know. To date, certainly. But Detlev has not seen it all. The moment we believe that, the moment we all decide to lean and stop learning ourselves makes this all fruitless. Quit the forum, buy Detlev's book and look no further. It's all been seen, it's all been written down, there's nothing more for any of us to do here. You believe that?

No it's not conclusive, Detlev's opinion or Pieter's opinion. It's good opinion but not conclusive. I think Pieter is right that the fact there is not an example in Detlev's book suggests he has not seen one from a vet. It's not conclusive, it's not good news but it's NOT conclusive.

[George Stimson]

Nor has Detlev ever featured a Rounder as his "Fake of the Week" -- something that would be very easy for him to do if he was totally convinced that these pieces were not good.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Nor has Detlev ever featured a Rounder as his "Fake of the Week" -- something that would be very easy for him to do if he was totally convinced that these pieces were not good.

...neither an Arnheim shield....
Pieter.

[George Stimson]

I don't know anything about the Arnheim Shield (and I mean anything! ), but the fact that Detlev has neither included the Rounder in his book nor showed it off as a "Fake" indicates to me that there's at least one expert who hasn't made up his mind on them yet.

[tom hansen]

No it's not conclusive, Detlev's opinion or Pieter's opinion. It's good opinion but not conclusive. I think Pieter is right that the fact there is not an example in Detlev's book suggests he has not seen one from a vet. It's not conclusive, it's not good news but it's NOT conclusive.[/QUOTE]





I think that nicely sums it up. I think the term "inconclusive" is probably the best term then. This neither states original, nor fake, and states that verdict is still out.

[Brian S]

Yes Tom.

Detlev nor Pieter never featured the Otto Schickle Condor Legion Tank Badge I have in my possession. Thanks to Gordon Williamson's keen eye and desire to learn more, he surfaced the proof.

Detlev nor Pieter ever featured the IMME pilot badge in my possession that I received from Detlev. He was aware of the controvery over the piece on the forum but said IT'S GOOD. And then a grandson of a recipient showed up here on the forum.

Bottom line, proof comes from various sources. Every time a thread shows up over a few months of no talking, I read it and wonder, "has someone surfaced somthing new? Will someone new pop up with some proof?" That's really the fun of collecting for me.

That's why...

I don't lean.

[Dietrich Maerz]

About 11/2 years ago myself and another Rounder owner wanted to force the issue with Detlev. We would simply send a cross to him and ask for a paid expertise. We informed him about that and he refused. He said, he will not give an expertise about something he does not know. He has not seen a Rounder with a dead solid provinenece and he does not know whether those are real or not. And he will not charge for an opinion, only for facts!!

That is what I call an honest and well founded judgement from a honerable man.

It would be completely wrong to say that since he has neither featured an Arnheim shield (which is wrong) nor a Rounder as a fake of the week, both are wrong. Strange logic...

He is doing what is the best way to do in this case: Wait for definite proove for one side or the other and don't jump the gun emotionally. There is nothing to be gained by this.

One might need to eat ones own words later and that is damaging to the stature in the community. HE knows that.

Dietrich

[Brian S]

Good for Detlev! That was truly the honorable road.

[George Stimson]

Dietrich

You mean the Arnheim Shield is not a real award?

[Dietrich Maerz]

I really don't know thats what I was told...


Dietrich

[George Stimson]

Can anyone enlighten us?

[Brian S]

I tend to read Klietmann with some seriousness when there's no possibility Godet could re-fabricate the item. Here you go.

[George Stimson]

Okay, so it wasn't a wartime award and it would therefore not be appropriate to compare it to a possible variation (the Rounder) of a definite wartime award (the RK).

[Pieter Verbruggen]

About 11/2 years ago myself and another Rounder owner wanted to force the issue with Detlev. We would simply send a cross to him and ask for a paid expertise. We informed him about that and he refused. He said, he will not give an expertise about something he does not know. He has not seen a Rounder with a dead solid provinenece and he does not know whether those are real or not. And he will not charge for an opinion, only for facts!!

That is what I call an honest and well founded judgement from a honerable man.

It would be completely wrong to say that since he has neither featured an Arnheim shield (which is wrong) nor a Rounder as a fake of the week, both are wrong. Strange logic...

He is doing what is the best way to do in this case: Wait for definite proove for one side or the other and don't jump the gun emotionally. There is nothing to be gained by this.

One might need to eat ones own words later and that is damaging to the stature in the community. HE knows that.

Dietrich

I would like to make some final conclusions for my self so I can stop posting on this thread on "rounders". It makes no sense to go on in having discussion on things you will have to be able to deliver "real proof" (as is "the" divise of this forum to be taken serious or get insulted) or ending in an endless discussion.
There were in the past and I mean before the forum even existed seriuos discussion on these rounders. As those people ( long time experienced collectors) and there are a lot of them "silent watchers" of this forum don't wan't to post their opinions (for reasons I can understand) it is not my right to post and reveal information and names. So standing alone I have to carry all the reactions by myself. Not that it bothers me a lot but what do I win by getting in to these battles every time....When I see a lot of the old "garde" collectors on shows, they ask me every time "why are you still doiing this" ,and I think they are right.
Do you realy think that dealers and collectors who have handled hundreds and hundreds of Knights Crosses don't have an opinion on it? I who gave my opinion ( and I'm aware that I will never able to proove it, but the contrary neither,and you can NEVER proove somthing for 100%, we believe the Juncker dies didn't survive the war, but can you proove it... I can say they did...you can ask for proof which I cannot give but can you proove the contary?....NO)
So what are facts my friends?....give me one fact for these rounders...beside the period they all puped up, sold by sertain sourses at laughable prices compared to other KC,...
But posting this is sarcastic and unhonorable.
Well for the believers I will give you my final remark on those rounders, very soft and sweet, not stepping on anyones feet....so I can be honorable to.
"The rounders are very well made crosses, found in wathever condition a collector likes them, you cannot want it better. They even come with attached oaks of a variant you don't have to be worried if it is a restrike or not. Real beauties and perhaps a very good investment for the future...perhaps they are even pré-45."

So the day I have to eat my own words, the damage to the stature in the community, correction "FORUM" community will be not so bitter. "I" know that.

Best regards Pieter.