Knight's War Merit Cross in Cloth

[Hans N]

Ah the rare blunt word type ala Pakistan

[Gary Symonds]

Since the quality of the cloth 1st class bullion cross offered by Bill Shea in the link I posted is even worse, we have to assume that Bill's cross offered for sale in 2006, was also a Paki job?

Observe in the link, the blunt tips of the swords and the ill formed swas, plus no oak leaves in the wreath that is not even perfectly round. The sword handles are vague and ill formed. Look at the evident lack of quality in the hand embroidery. The Ruptured Duck's offering way back when, has to be a repro; Right?

Can I believe my lying eyes?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=144754

Opinions?

[RonR]

Have had this one for quite a while.

Don't know if it is good or bad......



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[101combatvet]

Since the quality of the cloth 1st class bullion cross offered by Bill Shea in the link I posted is even worse, we have to assume that Bill's cross offered for sale in 2006, was also a Paki job?

Observe in the link, the blunt tips of the swords and the ill formed swas, plus no oak leaves in the wreath that is not even perfectly round. The sword handles are vague and ill formed. Look at the evident lack of quality in the hand embroidery. The Ruptured Duck's offering way back when, has to be a repro; Right?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=144754

Opinions?

This is the type of item I like to see in hand. We all know that these insignia were made, I've had a few examples over the years. So many factors to consider in an original piece and always be prepared for those fakes. Bill Shea is a good guy but anyone can made a mistake.... with that said it could be that real one that I spoke of.

[101combatvet]

Have had this one for quite a while.

Don't know if it is good or bad......



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Not what I would expect to see worn by a good German.

[Gary Symonds]

Doesn't have the quality of even the ICI that was bullion....I think we need to find a period photo to "prove" stuff like this was ever really worn...and then make close ups....What I don't like about this one ...IS: the details have not been executed properly...iE: sword tips, crossguards...off center and not Square swas, no oak leaves around center, nor vertical lines . Looks pakistani to me.

Here is a recent posting showing an officer wearing some kind of large cloth cross.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...965319t5965319

[RKC]

The 'Cross' image you are talking about can't be "cloth" & I believe this whole image has been put on the photo by 'Photo Shop' or some artwork type program.

Look at the background & right to the 'pleated' seam in the tunic pocket....There are NO wrinkles in this so-called "award" that lays over the 'pleated' area & is supposed to be lying on both sides of that 'pleated' part of the pocket. The arms are too straight, the swords are too straight....Whatever the 'Cross' is supposed to be I think it's "bs" by some yo-yo who is "working" photos lately & offering them on the different e-bays.

"Mine are bigger than yours"!
Here's a photo showing a 'KINGS' version of the War Merit Cross with Swords if you want to call yours the 'Knights' version. "Field-made" or "Friend-made" makes no difference....They weren't made under authorization or awarded under authorization of the 'Boys at the Top'!

Ron.

[Tony T-S]

I would have assumed that the cloth version of awards were created for those in combat situations (planes, tanks, ground forces etc) where as KvKs might have appeared more to the rear of the battle zone where war service (not normally under fire) was being carried. Obviously this was not always the case at all, but perhaps we could say a more common occurrence. So I'm interested that KvKs would have been made in cloth at all. Again, obviously, there will be exceptions. Hopefully we'll be able to see some photos of examples. Very interesting thread.

[lordpage]

I would have assumed that the cloth version of awards were created for those in combat situations (planes, tanks, ground forces etc) where as KvKs might have appeared more to the rear of the battle zone where war service (not normally under fire) was being carried. Obviously this was not always the case at all, but perhaps we could say a more common occurrence. So I'm interested that KvKs would have been made in cloth at all. Again, obviously, there will be exceptions. Hopefully we'll be able to see some photos of examples. Very interesting thread.

Shame I really wanted it to be a real one before I saw it.Lots of combat troops were awarded and wore KVK1,the kvk 2 ribbon bar is the most common out there,you could show merit as well as bravery(the clue being KVK For combatants).Although not official the cloth variants would definitely make sense if you're climbing out of a tank or plane cockpit.


J

[Patrick W]

Here is a period cloth KVK1

[101combatvet]

Here is a period cloth KVK1

In a weird and sick way I like it. A homemade variant that most will never be convinced of being an original.

[Gary Symonds]

Guys:

We have been treated to three examples of hand embroidered WMC's. Bill Shea's from 2006, Ron R's and Patrick W's as posted. As can be seen, for whatever reason, it is very difficult to properly hand embroider a swastika. Shea's is curved at the top. Patrick's is also ill formed. Ron R's is poorly done.

The example that I posted, notwithstanding the conclusionary opinions that the swas was poorly made, is not supported by the photographic evidence. On my example the swastika has all straight lines of equal length. It is perfectly executed and is squared and is proportionally correct.

All three hand embrodiered examples make no attempt to incorporate oak leaves in the wreath. Another posted negative opinion. All including mine merely have a wire circle around the swas. My example is perfectly round. The other two insignias have a wreath out of round.

The handles of the swords on my example not only are proportional, but have black threads in the handles to separate the wires, to give some depth to the insignia. The other two examples have very poorly formed swords and sword hilts,

Three different grades of wire were used. I have been a serious TR collector for 22 years, and in my opinion, contrary to what some members believe, the embroidery is absolutely consistent with period hand embroidery.

If you really want to see embroidery that is not up to TR levels, Bill Shea's is the poster boy. Yet, because Bill has such a good rep, you guys strain to make his cross possibly original, while mine, which is light years better in quality, is said to be a Paki repro.

I believe that Ron's and Patrick's and Shea's are original. Just home made. I believe that my example was professionaly made during the TR period. If you wanted something special, and you paid, you get it, that's the way it was in the 40s and is still the rule today. So what the membership consenus is, it would be impossible for this insignia to have been specially ordered? Says who?

There were posts expressing the opinion that a neck order would never be reduced to a sew- on cloth example. I cannot agree. The men who were awarded the Knight's Cross of the War Merit Cross were desk officers. Is it so out of the question, that a man would not want to have to wear a heavy silver cross around his neck all day while at work? Would he be arrested if he wanted a cloth privately made and purchased version to wear on his tunic?

A member said he wanted to see a cloth cross in wear. I posted a link with what appeared to be a German Doctor with a large cloth cross. The reaction? "Photo Shopped"!

The insignia that I posted, drew negative remarks, probably because nobody had ever seen an example before. This seems to be the norm in the WAF. In other words, "If I haven't seen it before, its got to be a fake."

Finally, if this is a Paki fake, where are all the others?

[101combatvet]

Send it to me and I'll evaluate it for a small fee.

[Gary Symonds]

Send it to me and I'll evaluate it for a small fee.

Check Saturday's mail.

[Simon O.]

Irrespective of size, IF period, the only thing it can be is a KVKI.

There were posts expressing the opinion that a neck order would never be reduced to a sew- on cloth example. I cannot agree. The men who were awarded the Knight's Cross of the War Merit Cross were desk officers. Is it so out of the question, that a man would not want to have to wear a heavy silver cross around his neck all day while at work? Would he be arrested if he wanted a cloth privately made and purchased version to wear on his tunic?

The men awarded the RK KVK were far from all officers and not all desk jockeys either. Off the top of my head i can recall train drivers, mechanics and engineers, but even so, the whole point of a cloth version is to avoid getting caught in things and neck awards don't have that same problem.

it was a highly prestigious neck award, how do you propose a cloth variety was worn?