Awarded Souval EK1 Examples

[Waffenreich]

Trevor,

Thanks for clarifying. In principal I agree with you and the "buy the item, not the story" approach probably has more value on this item than many others we encounter in this hobby. That being said, there will be cases on many debatable items where a story so to speak when backed-up by rock solid proof can exonerate an item. That is why I felt so strongly about the cross I provided. I felt the example I provided (which is a no-brainer as far as the weight the story carried in "exonerating" one specific piece) would convince the readers that each one has to be weighed on its own merits and not just categorically dismissed. I also hoped this would go beyond "some evidence, and probably made during the war".

If in the future any members doubt the connection between the note from Sgt Bricklin and this particular cross (implying maybe the note was added to this Souval cross and carton to legitimatize it) I would be happy to provide the e-mail traffic and pics from its source.

I'm glad we were able to get things cleared up a little.

vr

Bob

Hi Bob,



Let me be clearer then. I agree your cross provides some evidence that this type was probably made during the war. But I also think it's very likely that it was also made after the war, because all the parts were in use after the war as well.

So the important question about any one particular example of this exact type then becomes: how can you tell on which side of May 1945 it was made?

I think if you read through my posts in their entirety you can see that I never stated, "all crosses of this type are postwar." I simply stated, quite plainly, that I don't know (and also that, because of this uncertainty, I would not have one in my collection).

Happy Easter to you too

[dmytro]

Quote Streptile "Later I can post plenty of photos of postwar crosses using these components (57ers, blank cores, and some swastika cores with 57er pin systems"

Can I respectfully request such images, not to be obtusive but purely for clarification and positive evidence

regards

[streptile]

I also hoped this would go beyond "some evidence, and probably made during the war".

To be honest I think your cross and its story is very compelling, but I've learned always to use qualified, conditional language ("likely," "probably," "possibly," "evidence" instead of "proof," "imo," etc etc) on this forum. When you post a lot, people love to call you out for being wrong. So writing that way keeps a door open...

Quote Streptile "Later I can post plenty of photos of postwar crosses using these components (57ers, blank cores, and some swastika cores with 57er pin systems" Can I respectfully request such images, not to be obtusive but purely for clarification and positive evidence?

Yes, of course.

I've got a bunch of stuff on Souval, but I put together a couple quick and dirty comparisons to illustrate the point. In every case it's a known postwar cross on the left, and an unknown swastika-core on the right.

First, you can see that this pin and catch were also used postwar:

[streptile]

Here's one more on the pin, this time also with the same hinge:

[streptile]

Here's a nice comparison of the frames, just for your information although it is well-known Souval used this frame into the postwar period:

[streptile]

...and here's the same core, this time in one of Souval's very late (1960s?) EKs with their newly designed postwar frame.

[streptile]

Please don't hesitate to ask any more questions, I've got more images. I think (hope) these illustrations show that all the components used on this type of cross were also used into the postwar period.

[Dennis J]

Here's one more on the pin, this time also with the same hinge:

But not the same catch as the known post war copies.Your post war pic HAS the post war catch mine does not.

Dennis J

[streptile]

The example in the previous post has the same catch...

[streptile]

Hi Dennis,

My point is to show every component used on postwar crosses, and I've done that in the four comparisons above. If I show every component on the same cross, then we simply have... your cross! Or Leroy's, or Tim's. Here for your interest are some different views of this same catch used on other postwar Souvals.

Photo credit for both the blank core EKs above must go to Grüni. As for the others, if I used yours and forgot your name, I apologize.

[Leroy]

On a side note, the first example shown in Dietrich's book (which I took from the context to be one he believed original) has the same tool marks at the top of the pin.

[Chet Sowersby]

Trevor,
I had been comfortable with what I thought I that I knew about Souval wartime and post examples. This thread has expanded my knowledge greatly. Thank you for the superb comparisons explaining the issues confronting the likelyhood of these crosses being pre or post war.

Chet

[streptile]

Hi Chet,

I really appreciate your taking the time to let me know that.

[Flemming]

As it stands right now, this piece in itself says to me these were wartime production and this isn't the first EKI by Souval of this exact type I have received in groupings associated with US veterans. This is the only one though I can pin-down with provenance saying where he got it, and from the son - when.

vr

Bob

If I remember correctly, there were also The Rounder RK associated with US Veterans bringback items/groupings. But these turned out to be fake.
So a US veteran associated item does not guarantee originality.

/Flemming

[juoneen]

Even with real provanance , this forum refuses to believe in vet found items on either side , (believe me I know)even when true, or anything but what the sponsor money people state, which is mostly rhetoric on issues as this souval cross , and follow a pat set fantasy cake foundation.... based strictly on myth , iced with a thickly over powering sweet pandered theoretic frosting, and decorated with pure opinion trimmings, all the while thinking we all are just willing to buy their non factual conjectures..devoid of any truth to back up the opinion.....like we all just fell off the turnip truck. I trust the real vet found items over any unfounded authors opinions any day with no overwhelming facts to back them up.(not picking on this sections admin....but relating it to all so called authorities of any specific expertice )
Until this is changed, this forum shall go the way of other forums that also lost their way forgetting what is most important , putting reputations and money contributions for sponsors dues over real vet found proof does us all a great disservice.