1957 KC w/ oakleaves, swords, diamonds

[Steve Sherlock]

I'm looking for information on the 1957 Knights Cross with Oakleaves, Swords, and Diamonds. I've read through the forum and really haven't seen anything specific on the diamonds class. How common are these? They certainly aren't found as easily as the lower awards of the KC. Since there were only 27 original recipients (Williamson), was the 1957 version made in fewer numbers than the other KCs? How about the diamonds? Do the '57 versions contain real diamonds as did the originals, or are they faux? Also, was there a diminution in quality over the years of these as with the the other KCs? I'd appreciate the benefit of your expertise out there.
Steve

[Dez H]

Hello Steve

Welcome to the forum, hope you enjoy your stay. I am not an RK expert by any means, just thought I would add this small comment. Recently I saw an 1957 RK with Oakleaves, Swords, and Diamonds for sale on ebay. It caught my eye as I have not previously seen these for sale. The seller claimed it had real diamonds in it, however the picture was so poor that you couldn’t really tell anything from it. He was asking $600 AU for it. (300 USD) This was in the case of issue.
Surely if so few were ever awarded in the first place even less would have been reproduced .


Regards

Dez

[Steve Sherlock]

1957 KC w/ oakleaves, swords, diamonds

With respect to the buyer of the diamonds recently on ebay, that would be me. "Buy it now" price was actually AU$ 450 (about $250). I was the second or third person to see it. While the seller didn't say the diamonds were real, he did say it was genuine as to being an official set of the '57 version. Given that the price wasn't far from what a regular '57 KC goes for, I figured I couldn't go too wrong. It actually belonged to his brother, a collector of some rather exotic British militaria, who picked it up about 10 years ago. I haven't received it yet, but when I do, I'll share it with the forum if I can figure out how to post pictures here.

Given the lack of response to my questions, I gather that there isn't much information available on the '57 diamonds. I'd love to hear some.

My interest of militaria is somewhat general, though I specialize in early USMC items. Years ago I was very much into German uniforms, and had a nice collection. It bought me a house. Now that I've been reading about these 1957 versions of the Iron Cross, I'm finding it fascinating. Formerly I just lumped all the '57 versions together, but now I'm finding out about variations over time. Since they have quit making them since 1998, or so I understand, these will, no doubt, become more collectable. Gee, I can actually fathom building up a collection of Knight's Crosses. Never thought I'd be able to do that.....

Thanks,
Steve

[Dez H]

Hello Steve

My apologies, my memory was somewhat foggy on that item. I know I was looking at a '57 piece with real diamonds recently, if I can find where it was I will share it with you. Good luck with the RK from ebay, I was tempted to buy it but the crappy picture put me off and due to the sellers lack of response to my email for better pictures.


Regards

Dez

[Steve Sherlock]

1957 KC w/ oakleaves, swords, diamonds

Hello Dez,

I'm assuming it was the same one to which you are referring. It was about a week ago. For some reason it never showed up on the "completed item" section. After I bought it I asked for a clearer shot. The only one he had was the small one in the listing. His father had taken it. He sent it to me to blow up, but it just turned into a mass of digital blocks when I zoomed it. If you found another one, I'd love to see the listing.

Hopefully someone in this erudite audience will contribute some information on this award.

Steve

[Dez H]

Hello Steve

Yes that's the one.


Regards

Dez

[Prosper Keating]

One would suppose that the Diamonds to the RK were included amongst available accessories when the 1957 pattern awards were introduced. But they would probably have been no more than the standard 1957 pattern Oakleaves & Swords set with paste 'stones' or rhinstones. Some of the recipients still had their wartime sets. Some had several. Below is a photo from the late 1960s of Bernard Ramcke in evening dress, wearing some of his awards, including his Diamonds. These are apparently the pukka wartime ones by Klein, worn with a 1957 RK. Like some RKT, though, Ramcke often wore the 1939 pattern RK to unofficial events, occasionally turning it around to conceal the contentious swastika. But to official events and receptions, they wore the officially sanctioned 1957 pattern awards. Also of particular interest here is his 'Other Ranks' Pour-le-Mérite', the highest award for valour on the battlefield open to non-officers in WW1. I can't recall offhand the actual name of the decoration but I am sure Rick or someone can tell us. Ramcke is sometimes seen in WW2-period photos wearing this cross from his buttonhole.

PK

[Steve Sherlock]

What a wonderful picture. Thank you, Prosper.
I suspect you're probably right as to the '57 diamonds beings "paste" or rhinestones set on the standard oakleaves. I find it hard to imagine that the German government would reproduce ones with real diamonds. Yet, at this point, we're still speculating. Is there someone out there who actually has one? I'm beginning to think these are fairly scarce, even if they are as you suspect.

Thanks,
Steve

PS to Prosper,
I still have my early Souval NSFK balloon badge. Any idea who is looking for one?

SS

[Gordon Williamson]

As far as I am aware there was never a 1957 pattern diamonds set. The tiny number of recipients who would need to replace one (given that many of the original winners still had their original sets) rendering the commercial production of such an item non-viable financially. Certainly they have never appeared on the Steinhauer & Lück price list.
I have seen several sets of 1957 Oaks/Swords with imitation paste or rhinestones set into them (usually just glued). I can't imagine any Diamonds winner wanting to wear one of these. If anyone really needed a replacement set they could get one from Klein.

Gordon

[Prosper Keating]

Originally posted by Gordon Williamson
If anyone really needed a replacement set they could get one from Klein.

Gordon

How very interesting!

PK

[Gordon Williamson]

Klein have supplied collectors (a set comissioned from Klein by Vern Bowen was sold by Forman not so long ago for £1000), dealers (Hollywood Military Art sold Klein made pieces to go with their repro KCs 2o years ago) and museums (like the former Luftwaffenmuseum in Uetersen) with diamond sets for years. I can't imagine them knocking back an actual Brillantenträger if he wanted to comission some.

Gordon

[Steve Sherlock]

Gordon's "commercial non-viability" explanation certainly could account for why sets with real diamonds would not have been made in any significant numbers such that they would be available for the collector's market. We should, however, remember that initially these medals were not manufactured for the purpose of profit, but rather to enable veterans to wear, once again, their awards. According to the Ordensgesetz of 26. July, 1957, these medals would be conferred (verliehen) upon the recipients who could prove that they were entitled to the award. (Hans Karl Geeb and Heinz Kirchner's "Deutsche Orden und Ehrenzeichen" [1958] is a useful reference on the Ordensgesetz as that is the subject of this book, and both of the authors were officials in the Bundesministerium des Innern.) Thus, much like US medals similarly available at no cost to veterans (and family), commerical viability (profit) isn't a factor in their manufacture. Obviously the manufacturer profits from the govenment contract, but the govenment does not.

No doubt profit was a factor in the later production of the medals, especially those of the KC class, since, those entitled to it and who wanted one probably had their new version long before 1998. Obviously, given the number of them now on the market, these were made in quantity because they were profitable.

Since the Ordensgesetz provided that the new awards would be given to those entitled to it, this must have provided a venue by which a recipient who no longer had his original set could obtain one without having to pay for it, say, by commissioning one through Klein.

If that is the case, these would no doubt be quite scarce. My guess on the one I'm getting from Australia is that it will be the type to which either Prosper or Gordon refers.

Steve

[Steve Sherlock]

Note of interest:
Geeb and Kirchner, in describing the new (1957) version of the Diamonds according to the Ordensgesetz of 1957, write that both the oakleaves AND sword hilts are studded with diamonds. (Bei dem Eichenlaub mit Schwerten und Brillanten sind die drei Eichenblatter und die Schwertgriffe mit Brillanten besetzt.") [p. 132.]

Thus, I suppose, if there were official 1957 versions made, they would include diamonds on the sword hilts.

Steve

[Gordon Williamson]

One point which is often misunderstood is that there was no need for anyone who wished to obtain a 57 award to prove entitlement to it. The original West-German regulations regarding proof of entitlement before purchasing awards referred to West German government awards-not the denazified versions of Third Reich awards which were always available to anyone who wanted to buy them, either direct from the manufacturer or from retail outlets. They even sold them in the kind of shops which deal in sports trophies and medallions-to tourists or anyone else who wanted them.

These regulations used to be quoted in the Steinhauer catalogue.

Gordon

[Steve Sherlock]

Much as in the USA, orders and medals in Germany were, and are, available for purchase just about anywhere. But the Ordensgesetz was specific that for one to wear them, they had to be able to prove it, and this applied to orders awarded during the Third Reich, also. Paragraph 2 of §10 of the 1957 law reads: "Sind Verleihungsurkunden, Besitzzeugnisse oder andere in Absatz 1 genannte Besitznachweise fur Orden und Ehrenzeichen, die vor dem 8. Mai 1945 verliehen worden sind, verlorengegangen, so durfen diese Auszeichnungen auch ohne Besitzzeugnis getragen werden, wenn die Verleihung in anderer Weise nachgewiesen werden kann." Referring specifically to orders awarded prior to 8. May, 1945, if the conferring documents were lost, the holder could still wear them if he could prove it in other ways. §9 provides that a substitute document (Erstazurkunde) could be obtained through the German Ministry of the Interior. Recently on ebay there was a uniform grouping which had one of these documents. Now, while anyone could go out and purchase these orders, wearing them was a different thing.

§14 is the section which provides that the new Third Reich orders can be sold without the required proof of entitlement, but to those who can show a legitimate interest in them. But they can't wear them.

Steve