KC - I need Your help!

[peterm]

Hi guys!

Could You please take a look on this Knight's Cross? Is it ok?

Many thanks for Your help in advance,

Peter

[peterm]

.

[peterm]

..

[Ralph Arndt]

Looks like a Klein & Quenzer. 800 65 loop marked.

[peterm]

Looks like a Klein & Quenzer. 800 65 loop marked.

Yes, but is it an original wartime-piece?

Kind regards, Peter

[Flemming]

Yes, but is it an original wartime-piece?

Kind regards, Peter

I Think most would say yes...but if I remember correctly, then there are some who have doubts about the K&Q with the 3 dot flaw. There are probably made some af the 3 dot type after the war.
But wait for the more experinced in the RK to give you a better answer, as I Might not remember this correctly.

/Flemming

[Leroy]

Looks like an original K&Q cross to me.

[Dietrich Maerz]

To me, too.

[peterm]

Hi again!

Many thanks for Your help, these are good news!

Kind regards, Peter

[mads]

No doubt here either.
Have one myself too sooo

[peterm]

Thank You too, Mads!

Kind regards, Peter

[Hoss]

Well
There's goes me research while I've been laid up with health issues. I hate to say this but I wouldn't dive in with a wad until you find out positively this is a wartime piece.
Mr Maerz can you confirm? I've been reading the Klein & Quenzer with 65 was late and as a RK they are controversial, the best for a collector who needs to ask being an old faithful Juncker.

Eric

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hi Eric,

I don't know where this controvery comes from. Also, why "65" would be late? Here are the facts:

- K&Q was awarded during the war time. Early on without a "65" on the loop, later with the "65" and with the flaw.

- the notion "late" comes from the very wrong statement that the PKZ numbers were introduced in mid 1944 (Gordon Willimason and others). The correct thing to say is that the PKZ numbers started to show up in larger numbers on Knights Crosses in early to mid 1944, but were introduced late 1942/early 1943 (per VP of S&L in an interview and wittnessed by numerous German Crosses with provenance and PKZ number, als well as so marked East Medals) They were also not introduced in mid 1941 as the German author Thater claims in his book without any further proof or documentation (Das Eiserne Kreuz 1. Klasse, page 852).

- "65" marked K&Q RKs show up as early as late 1943 and there are numerous awards with provenance, including the clearly visible K&Q RK of Michael Wittmann (14. Jan. 44)

- later produced K&Q crosses developed a flaw which is a very good fingerprint to determine the originality of the crosses.

There always has been the rumor that either K&Q continued to produce after the war or that a pile of war-time produced crosses had been found sometimes in the early 70's on the premisses of the K&Q factory during a remodelling of that area.

I do not have any factual proof for this nor do I know of anybody who has.

Fact is this: K&Q was a legitimate producer of Knights Crosses during the Third Reich up to the very end (including the three dot flaw). Everything beyond that is just rumors and need to be proved with facts if it wants to be taken serious.

And here is the most important thing to remember when collecting anything: Nobody needs to buy anything! If one doesn't like K&Q, don't buy it! Leaves more for the ones who like them.

Dietrich

PS: There was a time, when Juncker L/12 were considered post war fakes by some informed and advanced circles in the USA .... If you listen to every rumor, you better collect nothing!

[Ludwig]

Looks like an original K&Q to me, too.

[ChrisJ]

Hi Eric,

I don't know where this controvery comes from. Also, why "65" would be late? Here are the facts:

- K&Q was awarded during the war time. Early on without a "65" on the loop, later with the "65" and with the flaw.

- the notion "late" comes from the very wrong statement that the PKZ numbers were introduced in mid 1944 (Gordon Willimason and others). The correct thing to say is that the PKZ numbers started to show up in larger numbers on Knights Crosses in early to mid 1944, but were introduced late 1942/early 1943 (per VP of S&L in an interview and wittnessed by numerous German Crosses with provenance and PKZ number, als well as so marked East Medals) They were also not introduced in mid 1941 as the German author Thater claims in his book without any further proof or documentation (Das Eiserne Kreuz 1. Klasse, page 852).

- "65" marked K&Q RKs show up as early as late 1943 and there are numerous awards with provenance, including the clearly visible K&Q RK of Michael Wittmann (14. Jan. 44)

- later produced K&Q crosses developed a flaw which is a very good fingerprint to determine the originality of the crosses.

There always has been the rumor that either K&Q continued to produce after the war or that a pile of war-time produced crosses had been found sometimes in the early 70's on the premisses of the K&Q factory during a remodelling of that area.

I do not have any factual proof for this nor do I know of anybody who has.

Fact is this: K&Q was a legitimate producer of Knights Crosses during the Third Reich up to the very end (including the three dot flaw). Everything beyond that is just rumors and need to be proved with facts if it wants to be taken serious.

And here is the most important thing to remember when collecting anything: Nobody needs to buy anything! If one doesn't like K&Q, don't buy it! Leaves more for the ones who like them.

Dietrich

PS: There was a time, when Juncker L/12 were considered post war fakes by some informed and advanced circles in the USA .... If you listen to every rumor, you better collect nothing!

Well Said !