Post-45 S&L and Klietmann

[RichW.]

That S&L produced 3rd Reich RK's (with Hakenkreuz) for a select market seems proven. Dr. Klietmann is also believed to have done the same using Godet dies stamped with Junker marks. Post-45 S&L's can apparently be identified, but is there any way to identify the post-45 RK made by Klietmann? What is a legitimate market value for the Post-45 S&L's and Klietmanns? Does any have either to sell.
Thanks,
Rich

[Dietrich Maerz]

Where did you get the notion that Klietmann made Godet Oaks with Junkcer marks from? What is a Klietmann RK?

[RichW.]

I said nothing about oaks. At least twelve years ago I began to see references to Kliemann turning out good copies of RKs using Godet dies. About the same time a number of sites began offering what they described as "ODR"s--orginal die restrikes. So... are they are restrikes made and offered through "die Ordensammlung" or any othetr other Klietmann connected operation? If so, how are they identified? If there is a way, what is their value.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

I must have been sleeping over the last passed 12 years...never heard this....
Pieter.

[ekhunter]

Confused

I was just about to say that myself

[Ron Weinand]

News to me. Where are the ads from?

[Ludwig]

There was a collector from England, attending this homepage some years ago, who informed me, that the Klietmanns (Mr and Mrs) had the Godet OL tools and the S&L RK tools, and that they together with a well known dealer in England produced at least KCs. What more he said about the OLs I don´t remember anymore.
I have seen the KCs I guess he was referring to, and they weren´t of the same high quality as the wartime produced. Much thicker and heavier.
If this collector told me the truth or not, I do not know, of course.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

There was a collector from England, attending this homepage some years ago, who informed me, that the Klietmanns (Mr and Mrs) had the Godet OL tools and the S&L RK tools, and that they together with a well known dealer in England produced at least KCs. What more he said about the OLs I don´t remember anymore.
I have seen the KCs I guess he was referring to, and they weren´t of the same high quality as the wartime produced. Much thicker and heavier.
If this collector told me the truth or not, I do not know, of course.

To my info this a thrue story, the KC were reproduced but with lack of quality of the wartime pieces.

Pieter.

[Destruction]

FYI...originally written by W.C. Stump in 2002


Dr. K. G. Klietmann was born in 1910. He worked in the Orders Chancellery during W.W.II. In what official capacity I never knew. He was a well established world authority of orders, medals and decoration of the world, an established author on the subject, and was the and Director of the Scientific Research Study of Order and Awards. He was so revered as a world authority that the German Government awarded him the "Bundesverdienst Kreuz". He was noted as a man who would freely assist any serious student of the subject by sharing information that he had accumulated during a lifetime of research and study. In the later years, as the interest increased in the collector community, he charged a fee for his services. For some reason he never charged me the first penny for the information he supplied to me over the years which is priceless today. In retrospect I can see that Dr. Klietmann had his faults, but he was an old man in his 60's when I first corresponded with him, had lived through a most tragic period in the history of his county and the world, lived n Berlin and most likely had a hard time just surviving the war and getting back to a life or normalcy. what he had to do to make ends meet we will never know. He was just human, provided a lot of good information to the world and may have been like the kid with mud on his hands at one time.

As per his wife and Godet I never knew why Dr. Klietmann never referred to her as his wife. I must can only assume it was to keep the two operations, the Orders Institute and Godet, to appear to be separately owned and operated businesses. His postition as an noted authority, an "expert" in the field, might look to the public as being counter productive with a wife in the retail business of selling order and medals. I never knew their reasoning, nor did I ever ask. I can say that as far as I personally know, Mrs. Klietmann sold the Knights Crosses, Oak Leaves and Oak Leaves and Swords as either left over stock from the war or as "museum copies". She never sold any reproduction, to my knowledge, as anything other than what they were. I guess the "museum" embellishment justified in here eyes the copies were more than just copies, not fakes. However, I am speculating and don't like to do so. I purchased many of the items that had been struck from the war time dies post war from Mrs. Klietmann. I was a dealer/collector at that time and bought and sold them as "museum copies". As I stated on the German Dagger thread, they were so good that they would fool Adolf Hitler himself. Today many are in collections as original and there is no way to determine if war time or post war produced. Just remember, if you see a "900 21" marked Oak Leaves or Oak Leaves and Swords offered for sale, NEVER pay a big price unless it comes with an iron clad province.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Now I see were this story is coming from! It has been repeated numerous times in forums and in some books. The old "there is no way to determine if war time or post war produced". Well, if nobody can see a difference to the real deal than it is the real deal by definition (but that is a different issue).

Klietmann has been accused for many things, amongst them also some involvement in introducing the Ballon Observer Badge into the market. Strong indications are pointing towards him and Mrs. Paetzold being behind the original Rounder when it appeared in the early 80s. But that might just be another stupid rumor.

Fact is this: Kurt-Gerhard Klietmann was born 1910 and he died 1990. He studied archeology and history at the university in Berlin and made his Dr. phil with a dissertation about the Roman pilum. He worked at the Berlin Pergamon Museum. During the war he was serving at the Eastern Front and was wounded twice. After the war he married Anneliese Paetzold and founded his orders and medal institute in 1951. He never had anything to do with the PKZ nor did he ever work there.

The retail shop "The Ordens Sammlung" run by Mrs. was very active in the 60 and 70 and numerous flyers do exist. Attached is one. It is interesting to note that she offered the oaks and swords in silver and also in silvered. This would make any post-war identification of her use of the original dies fairly easy since one would find "original" Godet "21 - 900" made of let's say Tombak and just silvered with no marks. But there are none .... and some people who are talking about this would not know how to identify a genuine set - "they all look the same to me".

Based on the statement in Willimson's book on page 473 "More recently, copies have been noted which give the impression of having been struck from the original dies. As it is known that the Godet tooling for the Knight's Cross, Oakleaves and Oakleaves with Swords survided the war, and were used for making restrikes in the late 1960s and 1970s, it is well within the bounds of possibility that they still exist today and are being used."

He gives no source for this postulation and it is well within the bounds of possibility that he just read it here at WAF and repeated it in his book without checking the validity or truth content. Investigations from my side and collector friends of mine did not turn up anything. Where are the masses of Godets?

The S&L dies in the very bad conditions have been reported to end up in England. The Knights Crosses stamped from that die are full of beading flaws and can't fool anybody - they are far from undistinguishable from the real deal.

Regarding a restrike of the Godet RK another question pops up. How would one know that it is not a reastike from Zimmermann? And that question alone tells the whole story about such rumors!

Dietrich

[Destruction]

During the war he was serving at the Eastern Front and was wounded twice. After the war he married Anneliese Paetzold and founded his orders and medal institute in 1951. He never had anything to do with the PKZ nor did he ever work there.


Dietrich

Dietrich,
Sorry for off-top, interesting about Klietmann. Are you sure he was on Eastern front? Not the whole period of time then? He had numerous articles published in Freikorps zetung called Der Reiter gen Osten from 1942 to 44, also there are a lot of personal correspondence between him and some FK commanders from the same time...I doubt it was possible to fix all this being in the East.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dietrich,
Sorry for off-top, interesting about Klietmann. Are you sure he was on Eastern front? Not the whole period of time then? He had numerous articles published in Freikorps zetung called Der Reiter gen Osten from 1942 to 44, also there are a lot of personal correspondence between him and some FK commanders from the same time...I doubt it was possible to fix all this being in the East.

I can only quote her what I gathered from "Orden und Ehrenzeichen - Handbuch der Phaleristik" by Henning/Herfurth, Böhlau-Verlag 2010, page 184-185. Obviously I did not spend my time researching Kurt-Gerhard Klietmann. I doubt that the authors made someting up like it is the case with most of the other "stories" that are circulationg about him on the Internet.

Dietrich

[Nick Carraway]

Ah Dietrich, the twisted story of the old collectors is an interesting one. It is nice to see the threads pulled apart every now and again to see which are real and which are fantasy. There is a lot of fantasy. The stories of Herr Floch, a true gentleman, come to mind. It is a small community with interesting stories...

[Brian S]

wrong thread sorry