Can anyone ID the maker of this RK ?

[Seppl]

Recently I came across this "Private purchase" RK, which was said to have been awarded in late 1944, by Forman. which is the source of this RK some 20 years ago.It is a superbly detailed Cross it weighs about 28gramms, and is 54mm High (including loop) and 48mm wide.
Only the loop is 800 silver marked, the centre is not Iron, but most likely Zinc or Kriegsmetall.There is still fosting to the beading and all the black laquer is present. The back of the cross is unusual as it more glossy than the front and grainy as well. The Swastika is high as the rim. I would appreciate some more Info on this type Cross as I can't find any references or Fotos of this type of RK. Were "private purchase" Crosses which were withdrawn from sale by the Praesident Kanzlei, issued to KC winners late in the war?

[Seppl]

This is the back of the Cross!

[Luftm40]

That looks like an SL. SL made Rks w/ non-iron cores and non-silver frames. Also non-iron cores w/ 800 silver. I used to own one that was awarded to a Heer Hauptmann very late in the war. Juncker also produced RKs w/non-iron cores

[Dave Kane]

In a general way it does! However, looking closely at the dates the 'shape' of the numerals are wrong.

[Seppl]

I thought it could be an S&L but I compared it to my textbook one with an Iron Centre, the beading is finer on the non-standard one . Also the Swastika and dates are different in fact a little smaller than a standard S&L.
Who knows?
I don't doubt it's originality, just would like some more info on it!
Servus,
Josef

[Dez H]

Hello Josef

As always you come up with some fantastic pieces, I am not a RK expert but could this possibly be a pre LDO produced cross that was only awarded very late in the war? Let me explain some more, maybe these non-standard RK's were on hand or on the bottom of the pile and as materials dried up these were "dug" out and awarded?


Just some thoughts

Dez

[Dave Kane]

I doubt that scenario because that would directly contradict the many hundreds of K&Q which were 'dumped' post war and the crates of Knight's Crosses also made by K&Q ( allegedly) found in a train car. K&Q it appears, was a prolific producer in the latter stages of the war. That's probably why we see so many mint and complete sets today with many still packaged in the cardboard outer carton
John

[Prosper Keating]

It must be original because it has a Forman seal of authenticity attached to it. But S&L? No...the frame looks like S&L but the beading is a bit different and the flaws are missing. At least we know that it's not one of the RKs made by a London dealer who acquired the cracked S&L RK frame dies in 1981. Of course, it could be a pre-LDO RK. Or perhaps it's one of the RKs produced by Mr Forman's great friend Frau Annaliese Kleitmann who ran Godet in the 1960s and 1970s. For under-the-counter sale to veterans, of course, not to dealers intent on ripping off collectors. But not on Godet dies because there would be lots of WW2 pattern Zimmermann/Godet RKs about today if Mrs Kleitmann had had access to wartime dies. But hey, maybe I'm being harsh. Let's just say, "Not in my collection!". Not unless it comes with a better provenance than that seal!

PK

[Dave Kane]

EXCELLENTLY put!!! I attempted to avoid the issue but, now that it has come to the forefront yes, the "Forman" connection and 'Private Purchase' explanation / story takes away a great deal of credibility to a generally good looking cross. But, looks aren't everything so I would have to place this piece in the same catagory as the supposed "Deumer" round cornered crosses...
John

[Luft62]

Truck loads of RK's etc

Speaking of the stories mentioned above relating to hoards of RK's found after the war:

My father told me that directly after the end of the war (day or two after that is) that when searching for food amongst the miles and miles of abandoned vehicles parked beside the road in Austria they came across a couple of trucks that were full of awards - from the RK down. He said there were boxes of RK's all in cardboard boxes - not to mention many more CCC's and EK1s.

He said that amongst those going through these vehicles were the local farmers who were driving off with with anything that still had petrol in it and was running.

I wonder what happened to these awards?
. . . tucked away in the back of an Austrian barn?
or are some them in our own collections?