Reflections on Deumer clasps

[Sebastian Bianchi]

This weekend I got at the Union show a clasp which came with a Deumer packet. It’s actually a scalloped one, which raises the first question - Did Deumer make these?.

Beyond that, I have in my collection two other Deumer clasps – one which is by this maker for sure (it’s marked) and one that came in a box that was marked L/11. The thing is, beyond some similarities, there are some clear differences – so that raises the question of why this would happen. I can think of a few options – if we assume that they are Deumer, two possibilities are different dies and subcontracting. The other possibility is that one or more of these are not Deumer, and that they were married to the envelope/box. So what do you think? Were these married at some point, and if they weren’t, why are they so unequal?

Here are the three together...

[Sebastian Bianchi]

The scalloped piece...

[Sebastian Bianchi]

This one is marked.

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Unmarked

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Envelope

[Sebastian Bianchi]

back

[Sebastian Bianchi]

More than reflections these were open for questions, I was hoping for some good discussion here. Did I miss something? How do you see it?

[Blitz]

Interesting question. I for one have never seen a scalloped Deumer or known that Deumer made them. Sub-contracting and different dies are both possible alternatives though. You never know. It just seems odd that these have never turned up before, not to my knowledge anyway. Can you check if there is a maker mark in the back, or is the ribbon attached too tight? Because if the packet is the only link to Deumer.. ..It's not what you'd call concrete proof.
I can't match the clasp to any manufacturer, but that doesn't mean it's long lost Deumer. The lower part of the wreath, the numerals, the eagles claw's and it's head are nothing like i've seen before. My archives are quite meagre though, so it's not a great wonder.
I can't comment on the packet, since i know all too little about them, seem ok to me though. The third unmarked clasp is a Deumer for sure, i have one just like it. This is an interesting issue and i hope someone can enlighten us.

[Biro]

Sebastian.....


The 1st Pattern you've posted above is the same as the 1st pattern posted by your pal Richard Gordon in this thread recently..... Spange 2nd Class - 1st Pattern ..............(Very slight date bar curvature, heavily rounded top left wingtip) .....He may be interested to learn of the possible Deumer connection.....

Also, these are Extremely similar to the Juncker spanges....connected (the same) die makers maybe???

Frank H or of course George will certainly expand more.., but in the meantime,
here is a composit of yours and Richard Gordons' spange ...

you two should talk!!

Marshall

[George Stimson]

Is the pebbling really that undefined around the "1939" and swaz on the unmarked example, or is it just my monitor?

[Sebastian Bianchi]

A good start! Don't make me call the rest of you by name now....

George, it is indeed not well defined, but I'm not in front of it now.

[Frank Heukemes]

I am as puzzled as you are and have nothing of value to add. I knew about the difference between your "old" two Deumers, we discussed it almost two years ago, I think. I have no clue why it is different. Regarding the new spange:
beautiful and indeed the same as Rich Gordon´s. Not one of the two most common types with scalloped date box. It COULD be Deumer, but I would not know.
I think all three clasps are original. I am not sure about the packet, I don´t collect these so my knowledge is limited. Does it look suspicious to anybody who collects these?

[Flemming]

I also thought of an early Junker. But when I compared it to my own Junker, I could see that there were some details that didn’t match 100%.

So I am of no help


I am looking forward to find out the result, because I really like those early ones. So maybe I should go for one like the one in question next time

Best
flemming

[Sebastian Bianchi]

I also thought of an early Junker. But when I compared it to my own Junker, I could see that there were some details that didn’t match 100%.

So I am of no help


I am looking forward to find out the result, because I really like those early ones. So maybe I should go for one like the one in question next time

Best
flemming

Thanks Frank and Flemming... anyone else care to take a stab at it? Anyone have clasps that resemble the ones posted here?

[Gordon Williamson]

The first pattern clasps we know as Juncker were ID'd because they were identical in design to L/12 maker marked "standard" clasps so the preponderance of identical die characteristics was overwhelming. Here the die characteristics are quite different to known Deumer characteristics.

Not conclusive by any means but I'd be wary of assuming Deumer because of it being picked up in a Deumer packet as its quite common to find badges which have been mis-matched with packets over the years, and these claps only seem to have been used for a few months at the start of the war before regulation standardised packaging was in full swing.
If we can find a few others which also came in Deumer packets or came as original vet purchases in Deumer packets we'd be nearer to establishing something.
Very nice clasp either way though.