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**Dave Kane** · 05-09-2004, 11:31 AM

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**Mike Coleman** · 05-09-2004, 11:56 AM

In reference to Mr. Kane's photos: QED.
MC

**24141** · 05-09-2004, 01:34 PM

Thanks for all the replies they are fascinating, however can someone please provide exact reasons why "my" set of OS&D are fakes as against showing me a picture of another set and saying "I told you so". To the best of my knowledge all original OS&D's were individually created and therefore no two would be the same. The information I have provided so far (confirmed by the pictures) purports my set to have been manufactured by Klein, silver stamped 935, contains white sapphires not diamonds, all of which would agree with Mr. Williamson's book for an original set, a book which I believe to be an outstanding piece of literature. I also forgot to mention that the suspension loop of my set is marked "925", again agreeing with Gordon's book (page 423). If someone else can show me a proven fake set with all the exact same details then I will start to believe that mine are fake, until that point I can find no reason to doubt their authenticity.

24141

**Brian S** · 05-09-2004, 01:40 PM

We have some deep pockets who are members here. Put a reasonable price on these for an original set and let's see if they sell. Another man of famous selling background has said "a perfect market will determine the price of any item." Go for it. Anyone who is not a fool will jump on these if you are correct. You will however have to excuse me from the onrush because I do not believe in these.

Forman's 3rd Edition, I believe, suggests $40,000 USD. That enough for you?

**Larry L** · 05-09-2004, 01:58 PM

Mr. 24141

Simple question: Where did you get these?
These doesn't match to the known originals, in my opinion.

L

**magprint** · 05-09-2004, 02:27 PM

Cost of Silver Diamonds

To answer Brian S. question:

The last set of (real) Silver Diamonds, that I am directly aware of, sold about 3 months ago for something in the $90,000 range. This changed hands between two of the most experienced collectors in the world today.

I am also aware of another set that might currently be available for over $100,000.

Mr. 24141's set does not match either of these sets, nor any of the other 3 sets that I have inspected. While all sets were hand "finished" they were still created from the same mold so their shape should be consistant. Mr. 24141 alleged Silver Diamonds does not remotely conform to that formation.

Regards,
Rich Moran

**Dietrich Maerz** · 05-09-2004, 03:20 PM

I completely agree with Rich and, as I always say : A die is a die! and this allows for an absolute foolproof check!

Unless, as some have suggested, there are several dies for one and the same thing. I doubt this very much, though.

Dietrich

**Allan P.** · 05-09-2004, 04:36 PM

24141, can we ask, did your set come with any provenance? Was the set acquired from a dealer, or direct from a family source?

Allan

**W. C. Stump** · 05-09-2004, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by 24141

Here are the additional pictures, apologies for delay
http://www.secondarie.eclipse.co.uk/fjg/DiamondsBack.jpg
http://www.secondarie.eclipse.co.uk/fjg/DiamondsClose.jpg http://www.secondarie.eclipse.co.uk/fjg/DiamondsFront.jpg http://www.secondarie.eclipse.co.uk/fjg/DiamondsSide.jpg http://www.secondarie.eclipse.co.uk/fjg/Diamonds935.jpg

Oh and by the way Godet never manufactured OS&D, Klein were the ONLY company allowed to manufacture. Godet manufactured Oakleaves and Swords. (Gordon Williamsom Page 422)

24141

Sorry, you are wrong again. Gordon never said that only Klein manufactured the Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds. He wrote on page 422 of his book, after talking about the Godet produced examples, "Soon afterwards, the jeweler firm of Klein in Hanau was given the sole contract to supply these awards to the Ordenskanzlie."

The example Gary posted earlier is a text book example of an original 1st type Oak Leaves Swords and Diamonds.

In the end, if the owner is happy with his set, that is all that is important for him.

**magprint** · 05-09-2004, 05:14 PM

1st Type Diamonds

Bill is, of course, correct. The first type of Diamonds was made by Godet and awarded, we know, 3 times. Mölders, Galland & Gollob. All 3 of these examples survive in collections/museum today.

Marseille did not live long enough to get any Diamonds and there is a theory that Graf also got the first type. We do know Rommel only received the second types - in both Platinum and Silver versions.

It is thought that Göring was instrumental in switching their manufacture to Klein. The theory is out there that "the first types were not good enough for his men". (Remembering the first 5 receiptants were Luftwaffe).

Rich Moran

**jcwater** · 05-10-2004, 02:21 AM

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="95%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle bgColor=#d3d3d3 colSpan=3>WH FIELD MARSHAL EWALD VON KLEIST UNIFORM WITH KNIGHT碨 CROSS W/OAK LEAVES & SWORDS </TD><TR><TD align=middle bgColor=#d3d3d3 colSpan=3> <NOBR> 56-48302 </NOBR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="95%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="30%"><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left width="66%" bgColor=#ffffff> SILVER Auction</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left width="33%" bgColor=#ffffff>20040603</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left width="66%" bgColor=#ffffff> Category</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left width="33%" bgColor=#ffffff>G4</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left bgColor=#ffffff> (Personality Related Items)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width="20%">

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="50%" bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2>Item Description
RARE!!! 100% ORIGINAL WWII ERA!!! One of the most remarkable lots we磛e ever offered! Includes von Kleist磗 original Iron Cross 1939 Knight`s Cross w/oak leaves and swords. 48mm, die struck silver frame, stamped ".800" and "21" to top of frame reverse, "silber L/50" marked oak leaves reverse. Includes original neck ribbon with ties, strong colors. Also includes his uniform, which all three pieces are named to him: Tunic about size 36-38, high quality doeskin wool M-36 tunic, dark green wool collar with General collar tabs, 2nd pattern Feldmarshal shoulder boards, bullion breast eagle, 10 place ribbon bar with Iron Cross 1939 2nd class, KVK 2nd Class w/swords, Russian Front, WH & NSDAP Long Service, HB Cross, Czech Occupation w/Prague bar device, DAK Service and more. Also includes four beckets (2 sets vertical), four gilt buttons to scalloped flaps on pleated pockets, five down front. Named tailor tag inside inner pocket, grey satin lining. Includes matching trousers, about 34" waist, correct red stripes down legs, 3 button fly and hook & eye closure. 9 </B></TD></TR><TR><TD align=left bgColor=#d3d3f3> Click Here, to show your Bid History </TD><TD align=middle bgColor=#d3d3f3>Scroll down for larger image </TD><TD align=right bgColor=#d3d3f3>Current date/time at page load: 05/10/2004 2:13:59 AM </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="95%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle width="12%" bgColor=#d3d3d3>Reserve:</TD><TD align=middle width="12%" bgColor=#d3d3d3>Current Bid:</TD><TD align=middle width="12%" bgColor=#d3d3d3>Your Proxy Bid:</TD><TD align=middle width="22%" bgColor=#d3d3d3>Required to Bid: (Whole $'s only)</TD><TD align=middle width="10%" bgColor=#d3d3d3>Bids on item:</TD><TD align=middle width="20%" bgColor=#d3d3d3>Bidding status:</TD><TD align=middle width="12%" bgColor=#d3d3d3>Add to watch list:</TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle> $35700.00</TD><TD align=middle> No current bid. </TD><TD align=middle> No Proxy bid. </TD></FORM><FORM id=form1 name=form1 onsubmit="return SubmitIt(this)" action=/logon/LoginOrNot1.asp method=post><TD align=middle><NOBR> <INPUT size=15 value=35700 name=bamount> <INPUT type=hidden value=5648302 name=itmx> <INPUT type=hidden value=35700 name=required> <INPUT type=hidden value=-1 name=curWinCustID> <INPUT type=hidden value=50003 name=curCustID> <INPUT type=hidden value=-2 name=curBidAmt> <INPUT type=hidden size=3 name=cat> <INPUT type=hidden size=6 value=51492-6481 name=catitem> <INPUT type=submit value=Bid name=dbid> </NOBR></TD></FORM><FORM name=vbform onsubmit="return checkQR(this);" action=newreply.php method=post><TD align=middle height=29>0</TD><TD align=middle height=29>Time Remaining to Bid:
24 days 18 hours 16 min. 
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06/03/2004 at 8:30:00 PM CST </TD></FORM><FORM id=form2 name=form2 onsubmit="return SubmitIt(this)" action=/logon/LoginOrNot1.asp?bopt=watch method=post><TD align=middle><NOBR><INPUT type=hidden value=-1 name=curWinCustID> <INPUT type=hidden value=0 name=curCustID> <INPUT type=hidden value=5648302 name=itmx> <INPUT type=hidden size=15 value=35700 name=bamount> <INPUT type=hidden value=35700 name=required> <INPUT type=hidden size=3 name=cat> <INPUT type=hidden size=6 value=51492-6481 name=catitem> <INPUT type=submit value=Watch name=dwatch> </NOBR></TD></FORM><FORM name=vbform onsubmit="return checkQR(this);" action=newreply.php method=post></TR><TR><TD colSpan=7><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0 marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" rightmargin="0" leftmargin="0" bottommargin="0" topmargin="0"><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle width="10%" bgColor=#ff0000> NOTE: </TD><TD align=left bgColor=#ff0000 colSpan=5>Payment for SILVER items will be AUTOMATICALLY charged to your CREDIT CARD on file. </TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle width="10%" bgColor=#d3d3f3> NEW ! </TD><TD align=left bgColor=#d3d3f3 colSpan=5>Manion's now utilizes PROXY BIDDING in accepting and placing bids. Click Here, for Proxy Bidding help.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=middle colSpan=7>View 1

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**hagwalther** · 05-10-2004, 02:40 AM

Galland's Diamonds

Hi There,

Have been following this thread but I'm afraid it is way over my head re: experience in authenticity et al.

However, I noticed the name of Adolf Galland being mentioned. Now, I just finished his book last week 'The First And The Last' and in his chapter 'Forwards Or Backwards' he describes his award of his diamonds.

And I quote.

"How I got the diamonds is another story. Hitler had given me one set with the usual ceremony. Some time later, when I was sitting opposite Goring in his special train at his H.Q. in the Ukraine, Goring looked at me quizzically and said, "tell me, are those diamonds the Fuhrer gave you? Let me have a look at them'

I put down my knife and fork and started to take off the Knights Cross...

... Goring took my diamonds in his hand and scrutinised them. 'No,' he said with a grimace of disapproval. 'These aren't diamonds at all. They're just stones, ordinary stones. The Fuhrer has been swindled over this. He knows a a lot about guns, battleships and tanks but hasn't a clue about diamonds. Look here, Galland, I'll get some for you. Then you will see what diamonds really are. I still have a few left'.

He took the diamonds and I fastened on my Knights Cross with a paper clip.

Later I went to Karinhall to see Goring. The diamonds had been built by his court jeweller and Goring was as pleased as a child.

'Look here,' said Goring, holding a decoration in each hand so that the diamonds sparkled. 'These are the Fuhrer's diamonds and these are the Reichmarschall's. Do you see the difference? Now, which one of us knows about diamonds?' I had to admit that he was right. The Reichmarscall's had a beauty of their own, they were larger and had a wonderful brilliance. Compared with them, the Fuhrer's stones looked very inferior. He gave me both decorations back and I now had two sets.

Well, later it seems that Hitler found out about this and stated that the original pair he had awarded were only 'temporary'. He then ordered another pair made which was presented to Galland as a third set after he criticized the second (Goring's pair) as 'just ordinary stones'.

Galland continues. "Towards the end of the war my command post near Berlin was completely destroyed by bombs, and among other things I lost set No. 3. When Hitler heard of this he had a new set made. This was my fourth".

I thought this was a quite interesting story and of possible interest to this thread.

Regards ...

**24141** · 05-10-2004, 03:04 AM

Mr Stump, it really would help if you read ALL the posts, I have already apologised for that mistake on page 3.. Perhaps the attached picture will help this discussion or will this be accused of being fake as well. Deleted parts are solely for privacy and confidentiallity.

24141



http://www.secondarie.eclipse.co.uk/fjg/OS&DProv.jpg</PRE>

**Flemming** · 05-10-2004, 03:08 AM

I do not know enough about the KC and beyond. But is the word "SILBER" not supposed to have a little "i" (SiLBER) instead of a capital I?

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**Brian S** · 05-10-2004, 11:20 AM

I'm not a conspriacy freak by any means but I would challenge 24141 to come out of the shadows of his name and reveal himself. I've learned some interesting information that I will share with Seba regarding his identity. If I'm wrong, then come out of the shadows.

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