Strange Merten U-boat story in German auction ?

[Leroy]

Did he have two sets?

Dietrich

If he had a cased (maybe mint?) RK (separate from the Oakleaves), what did he wear everyday from the time he won the RK originally? Almost 3 years of active wear and no sign of it?

[Kondor]

Did he have two sets?

Dietrich

No, only these, cased. He did not have a set that he woreduring the war. I think that set was purloined by a GI down in Bavaria along with his dagger. He kept everything in a wooden box wrapped in paper mache. He told me that everything was going to go to the U-Boat Archiive after he was gone, but I guess his son had other plans!! Here is a composite of him with the RK, his Oakleaves Document, and his cased U-Boat badge with diamonds. The U-Boat badge is pictured far better in the KM forum. I didn't have a flash with me nor a good lense with me at the time.

[Dietrich Maerz]

The photo shows a mint cross with an untouched ribbon. So it is absolutely clear that this set is NOT his award piece.
It is also clear that he was not awarded a "65" marked Klein & Quenzer in 1942 and it is also clear (for me at least) that he was not awarded a Type 2 (900-21) set of Oakleaves in 1942.

It seems also clear to me that a person writes down "no.1" on a case only if the person has already no. 2 (or more).

That makes it clear to me that the K&Q in the case labeled "No.1" is a switch. The more so since it was once already sold w/o the oaks. Most likely came from northern Germany ...

The contemporary picture shows IMHO a Juncker or maybe even a S&L. Pure statistical data (for what it is worth) would point to a Juncker, but S&L is also known for that time frame (but a lot rarer!).

The whole thing seems to be a collectors version of musical chairs. All that is missing is a COA!

But it will be sold and it will be paraded around as the real deal. Just like all the other Merten crosses that might be out there!

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

Did he have the preliminary documents?

Dietrich

[Leroy]

So, one set (as Dietrich says) of either a Juncker or S&L with an earlier Godet, and another (unknown set) "liberated" by an Allied soldier (and certainly never returned).

Must be a COA somewhere!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Just to top it off a little bit: the pictures of the S&L micro 800 and the Type 2 oaks and the two preliminary documents all have the picture source "Hermann Historica".

[Bob Hritz]

The Oak Leaves, in these photos, are not in a WWII period box.

Bob Hritz

[Kondor]

Did he have the preliminary documents?

Dietrich

I remeber seeing the one for the RK, but not the Oaks. I have to admit though that I was more interested in seeing the larger formal ones as I had never seen one before and this was the chance to see both with their original folders! Again, I apologize for the poor pictures. 35mm, no flash.

Regarding the cased oaks Bob, it wouldn't surprise me. He had an L/58 marked Spanish Cross, bronze. He told me up front that a GI got the original and he bought that one after the war.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Ok, that should settle it. Regarding to the actual recipient his original set of the Knights Cross and the oaks was taken by a GI. That makes all the known sets of Merten at auctions or in books original contemporary examples with false provenance (and wrong case inscriptions).
Nothing new!
What is new, however, is that the Internet with its data collection possibilities and the created transparency uncovers such misdoing fairly easy. Which does not effect anything really since the potential buyers dont' visit these lowly Internet fora full of know-it-alls! They rather buy the stuff with a Nimmergut COA!

Dietrich

[Bob Hritz]

Dietrich,

I was once told that too much information just overloads the brain. I think this is why so many 'provenanced' groupings are out there: many brains are not overloaded!

Bob Hritz

[Dietrich Maerz]

Knowledge just spoils the fun for some!

[Napalm]

Beige trousers, striped short sleeved shirt, horrible shoe's, overweight, glass's, know it all attitude, what you gonna expext DM? LOL

[Leroy]

Ok, that should settle it.

[frankandfrank]

Yes, the Merten medals are very questionalbe from the authentic !


Please look other offer: Its No: 8965 from kc winner Moehle !

Das Ritterkreuz von Klein & Quenzer Hanau. Geschwärzter Eisenkern in polierter Silberzarge mit Punze "800", der Sprungring mit Punze "800". Gewicht 30 g. Zusammen mit einem 39 cm langen Bandabschnitt im Verleihungsetui.

The Knight's Cross by Klein & Quenzer, Hanau. Blackened iron core in a silver frame punched "800", the suspension ring also punched "800". Weight 30 g. Together with a section of ribbon 39 cm in length, in an award presentation case.

The knights cross looks very new ! If he got this knights cross in 1941 this kc must have more wearing tracks.

If you have ever seen knights cross directly from estates to this showing knights crosses - there is a big different ! Total other finish. The estate knigts crosses has fine finish with history ! At these pieces - which showing in this tread - im missing this!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Another Klein & Quenzer in 1941! Pristine and mint and sometimes with a COA from Hamburg. No wonder that people think they are fake (which they are not!).