Oakleaves on Empire Auction

[Gary B]

Hi,

I was looking at the upcoming Empire auction and noticed a very unique set of Oakleaves: http://www.empiremilitaryauctions.co...il.asp?id=1917

Apparently the RK and Oaks are part of a group of medals brought back from the war by an RAF flight officer. Although the display boards and RK are nice I was intrigued by the description of the Oakleaves. From the catalog's description, the Oakleaves are the Godet Type 1 pattern (with the close vein to the leaf) but have an S&L suspension loop attached to them. The auction house is making the supposition that S&L purchased unfinished oakleaves planchets from Godet and finished them at their S&L factory.

If I remember correctly, S&L listed Oakleaves in their catalogs for a very short period of time and Godet Oakleaves were unmarked (no L/50 or 21 mark) also for a very short period of time. Bearing these facts in mind the window for production of these oakleaves would be a very short timeframe.

I was surprised no one has commented on that here in the cross section, since this is a very interesting find/discovery.

Does someone have a set of S&L Oaks they could post?

Gary B

[Franco]

Hi,
Do a search,you will find plenty.

[Gary B]

Hi Franco,

If I remember correctly, Godet was the only authorized manufacturer of the oakleaves (L50 & 21). S&L sold Oakleaves in their catalog for a very brief period of time before the PKZ and LDO got involved with control of the awards, which is why the ones posted in the Empire auction are so unusual.

Gary B

[Leroy]

I started a discussion on the cross to which these Oaks are attached a couple of months ago when the grouping was first listed by Regimentals ("Schickle RK on Regimentals"). We really didn't get into the Oaks very far.

Here is the photo of the set from Regimentals, as well as a photo of what is believed to be a wartime set of S&L Oakleaves.

I would be surprised if S&L obtained Oaks from Godet, although I suppose most anything is possible. After all, S&L advertised in its catalog KM badges which are clearly Schwerin, but then actually sold pieces which were different.

[Flemming]

Leroy, I do not think that these two sets of Oaks, that you show here is a match, do you?

When I try to compare them, I can see some differenses between them.

/Flemming

[Patrick W]

Leroy, those oaks you have posted appear to be postwar Souval design- did S&L have the same?

[Leroy]

No, no. The S&L design is different (and that's why I posted the comparison). Souval's Oaks are entirely different from either of these (at least based on all the Souval one I have personally ever seen).

[Leroy]

Couldn't find a quick photo of the Souval Oaks just by themselves, but here's a shot of the Souval O&S.

[Gary B]

Hi Leroy,

Thanks for posting these.

The timeframe for production of either S&L Oakleaves and the unmarked Godet oakleaves must have been very short and, hence, exceedingly rare. The catalog description mentions the distinct S&L finish given to the set which they are offering which I am not familiar with.

Gary B

[Leroy]

Hi, Gary,
Regarding finish, I have seen S&L sets with different types of finish, so I'm not sure to what particular finish they are referring.
No good study has ever been done of Oakleaves by producers other than Godet (the "official" supplier), although Gordon Williamson does show some variety in his book, and there is no real doubt that others made them.
Regards,
Leroy

[Patrick W]

Thanks Leroy, are these ones S&L or Souval ones?

[Leroy]

Look like Souval to me.

[Patrick W]

Thanks

[Dietrich Maerz]

I had the set at my home under my microscope. The oakleaves are Type 1 Godet. There is not the slightest doubt. Why they are not marked with the usual "SiLBER" and (later) "L/50" I do not know. It is also worth noting that the attached loop is not typical Godet but rather more S&L style.

We can all speculate until the cows come home but one thing will still be true at the end: this is a Godet Type 1 oakleaves set w/o the usual stamping and loop. The "900" silver content stamp is also typical Godet. The finish is the shiny, white silvery one in contrast to the typical more subdued yellowish one by Godet.

One could speculate that S&L got an unmarked stamping from Godet as a sample or whatever. Since it is a Type 1 this seems to be something that could have happened early in the war.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

That is very interesting, Dietrich!

As always, your ability to tell original Godets from fake is unsurpassed.

P.S. Did you look at the cross, too?