Fritz Zimmermann linked to UB Makers :

[Douglas 5]

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[streptile]

Hi Douglas,

There is a lot to digest in this thread, which probably accounts for the delay in replies. I myself am not sure I understand all of your conclusions yet. Let me just start by asking one question, and then I'm sure there will be more.

Are you saying that these two crosses have the exact same core?


UM Zimmermann 6 (L) and "Little Brother" Übergröße (R)



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[Douglas 5]

Hi Trevor :
Well to the question : .... Both have only the same core in regards to the size of the Swastika as a U'bergross core . The design of the Swastika and date are very distinquishably different on all of them . The line up of three I did to scale demostrates - to me intentional - the Swastikas are the same size .

Douglas

[streptile]

Hi Douglas,

Thank you for your answer.

So it is your belief that any core with a larger swastika is an Übergröße core?

[Douglas 5]

Trevor: Yes , ....... excluding Knight Crosses that also have larger Swastikas .

Regular EK2s and 1s had detailed guidelines for manufacturing which makers had to abide by . If there were any tolerances in the dimentions I do not know ... but existing crosses shows us that minor variationes in style beading and core sizes were common .
As far as I know - the full size UB crosses were never official awards .... they existed for some reason and with that would have been also some manufacturing/appearance parameters . After obtaining a few crosses with these UB cores - all otherwise different from each other - and comparing them - one thing only they have in common . The Swastika is the same size on all of them I have been able to get sofar !

To me this indicates that this core with this UB size Swastika had to have a very destinct and intentional purpose to show and represent something .
Two thing that stand out for this : 1st : Fritz Zimmermann and Juncker - the 2 I found so far- both have other normal size Swastika cores to use that would fit easily . 2nd : The effort to modify a regular frame (F.Z.) and the " Un-effort" (Juncker) shown by plunking the frame right on top of the Swastika . The latter was not code conforming and would never have passed inspection ! .... because it never had to . I say this because I see it as a private purchase piece - unauthorized version of a Field KC replacement ... in EK1 form . As a correction to the large size Swas > You and Carl unknowingly had early come across the "Small KC" core - and again another -unneccessary??- core . .. another piece of the puzzle !?
In case of this F Zimmermann EK2 - it being an early and thick piece and silver frame with an UB core and to me - evidence in how the frame was trimmed - is was a full UB size originaly . Compared to a regular F Zimmermann the arm cut outs were done with a different tool ... down sized to conform to regular EK2 !
Regardless which ever way these larger size Swastika cores were mounted in a frame they had an original purpose and this core is a main identifyable part of an UB cross . As has been noted generaly - the oposite goes for when associating a maker to a regular EK1/ and 2 - the Frame being the main/determening part of the cross .

Douglas

[streptile]

Hi Douglas,

If there were any tolerances in the dimentions I do not know

Whether there were tolerances specified in the instructions given to manufacturers of the EK2, I do not know either. However, we can observe quite significant variations between various dimensions across makers of the standard (non-variant) EK2s.

From my own collection, which is a small sample set, I maintain a chart of key dimensions. Here are some of the data.

• The widest flange is 2.0mm, the narrowest is 1.1mm. That is a 45% variance ratio.
• The widest beading strand of any of my crosses is 2.3mm. The narrowest is 1.4mm. That is a variance ratio of 40%.
• The widest overall arm width (measured across the bottom of the frame arm) is 26.5mm, while the narrowest is 23.7mm. That is an 11% ratio.

There are a dozen or more small measurements of both core and frame that vary from cross to cross.

As I ponder your conclusions, my next question for you is:

Why should what appears to be standard variance of one particular design element (in this case, the swastika) be significant, when others are not?

[Douglas 5]

Trevor : The dimentional variations that the regular EK1s and 2s have - as you correctly pointed out - is a key element . This peticular element is missing in the production of these larger Swastikas . That is why I made the to scale comparison of 3 of them ! All 4 actualy have the same size Swastika - this which should not be at all ..... exspecialy as every one of them has a different 1939 date !!! All manufacturers that may have been making these larger Swastikas would have different size Swastikas - just as the Ek1s and 2s have ,.. but they do not .
Now lets go with the assumption manufacturers were given 2 things : a fix larger size Swastika and a 47x47 coin silver frame size .... and asked to design a Field Knight Cross proto type . Something close to a KC but different enough from a normal EK1 and 2 . Many took the oportunity to make one- either making new dies or using existing dies or ones they had ...and from this many bead variations were created .....this creating the ultimate inconsistancy aiding to the necessity of a Standarts Governing Body: Once this inconsistancy was noted an immediate stop was ordered and only the S&L design allowed . How long any production went on of this one type .... going by their availablity .... would be a very short time periode .... probably a good guess . Possible private sales of this prototype would not helped matters much and nor any altered UBs either . 70 to 80% of all full size UBs are from the same manufacturer .
Actualy this is not an assumption - it is what the UB was ' intended ' for , ... as exsplained to me by the Professor I met . As a side note - he and his dad found the exspression U'bergross - " over size' - quit comical - as in the time periode it did not exist and if anything the oposite applies ... as it is an Undersized KC .
At that time that was very surprizing information I would have never figured out in a tousand years . Not having any documentation I had to find evidence to support/demonstrate the intent of the full size crosses of this nature . I should point out thas the small = reduced size UBs have absolute nothing to do with full version .
The details of the full size and reduced size 'UBs" are quit exstensive on their own and need a seperate thread .
The main reason for the larger Swastika cores shown here is to demonstrate that they were made by more than one maker ... F Zimmermann , Juncker , S&L , Godet ....etc involved .. and the cores on these samples were specificly designed and made with a purpose .
The early Fritz Zimmermann ... as show earlier in the post has a modified frame to fit the larger swastika . An excelant cross to demontrate left over parts originaly produced for this Field KC with never got to the authorization stage and must have been suddenly stopped .
This Zimmermann frame was cut a larger size ( how large one cannot tell anymore on this one - ) to start with and ground down . The frame is coin silver and the arm cut outs are of the normal UB style - uneven width of frame flange ...
What makes a cross an UB cross ; The size first : 47x48 aprox ! These and the reduced size UBs have same bead size layout .
First picture : Godet bead lay out is slightly larger than the common UB .
Second picture : regular Godet core on the left ...... and on the right the Godet with the UB larger core .

Douglas