Shouval L/58 Knight Cross

[Douglas 5]

Did Shouval make and or sell any 39 Style Knight Crosses befor May 1954 ??

Douglas

[Darrell]

'54?

[Bob Hritz]

According with mny correspondance with Heer Umlauff, managing director of firma Rudolf Souval, there were no WWII era produced Knight's Crosses. He did say that the Russians left him alone, and after the war there was a demand for the Knight's Cross and they were made. Herr Umlauff was very proud to have replaced Knight's Crosses for several awardees who no longer had their awarded pieces, after the war.

And yes, Souval was in full production by 1954.

Bob Hritz

[Douglas 5]

I see that it should have read ... May 1945 .

Shoval is not a war time manufacturer of KC,s ... so if I understand this correctly he did make post war replacements for Vets that lost their issue KCs . Did these replacements use what dies and did they have the Swastika cores .

Douglas

[Bob Hritz]

Hello Doug,

Firma Souval did create new dies, post-war, for the Knight's Cross, the upper grade devices, to include brilliants, and the Grand Cross. The awards that souval did make, during the 3rd Reich Era continued in production and dies were created for whatever badges and medals were in demand.

Such pioneers as Ken Lane, a US serviceman who remained in Vienna after the war, created catalogs that featured Souval products. Ken lane constantly looked for hoards of original material and also had many items copied, for collectors. I believe Ken passed away in the early 1980s.

I was fortunate to have had a long correspondance, in the 1960s and 1970s, with Herr Umlauff about Souval's production. Unfortunately, when my home was destroyed, all the original correspondance were lost and I am forced to use my recollections.

Bob Hritz

[Douglas 5]

Thanks Bob :
I have been given the oportunity to purchase a marked L/58 KC with case Receipient named .
I have never seen a Souval KC and the only partial pictures I got 8 years ago off of another site - it was deamed a post war copy .
What is a fair price ???? Anyone got pictures ???

Douglas

[Bob Hritz]

.

[Douglas 5]

I guess it is a match to this one .
6 pictures
Douglas

[Douglas 5]

2 and 3 :

[Douglas 5]

5 and 6:

[Leroy]

Bob - Do you happen to recall if Herr Umlauff specifically said they made new dies for the RK, or did they get them somewhere else? The reason I ask is there was thread just last week on GCA showing Deumer producing RK's in their factory in 1940, even though they said after the war that they did not make them, and even though they are shown in their catalog for RM 5.25.

[Bob Hritz]

Gentry,

From my correspondance, I cannot recall the exact words, but Herr Umlauff had responded to my questions about the higher valor awards. He wrote that firma Souval did not have a contract to produce the Knight's Cross, the upper award appurtanances, or the Grand Cross. He also said that after the war, those were put into production for replacements and for collectors. I do not know if they had dies from another firm or they made new dies.

From 1965 to 1974, I had bought thousands of original surplus pieces from Souval, to include:

Iron Cross 1st and 2nd Class
Mother Crosses
War Merit Crosses 2nd Class with and without swords
War Merit medals
Ost medals
Azad Hind Medals
Driver badges
Krim shields
Kuban shields
Eastern Peoples medals in all Classes
Eastern Peoples badges in all classes
Tank assault badges
General assault badges
Infantry assault badges

There may have been other common pieces, but my memory fails me.

They were offered to me in lots of 1000 assorted pieces for $600.00.

The new production pieces were of the obvious post-war fittings and finishes and were priced at $4.00 to $9.00 each. Of course, by then the Knight's Crosses, German Crosses, Grand Crosses and other higher awards were in production. These cost more because of increased complexity.

A funny sidenote: I had gotten a Souval made badge of the award for arts and sciences. I wrote Herr Umlauff and asked him when they copied the award. Herr Umlauff's reply was quite sharp and advised me they were authorized to produce the wearer's copy, as the award piece was so heavy that it required a strap and counterweight to be worn beneath the clothing. When I sent him a Poloroid photo, he advised me it was 'an old one'. I asked about a case and ribbon. A few months later, a package arrived with a case which was supposed left over stock and completed for me and a modern made sash. Herr Umlauff's letter invited me to Vienna where he would show me Dr. Doehle's authorizations to make the Arts and Sciences wearer's copy, as well as the other awards, from the war. Sadly, by the time I got to Vienna, Herr und Frau Umlauff has passed to the Great Void and firma Rudolf Souval made coprorate and event pins and other trophys. None of the old staff are there and nothing remained, in militaria, from the predecessors. I was advised the dies and equipment was sold off to' an Eastern concern'.

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

From 1965 to 1974, I had bought thousands of original surplus pieces from Souval....

The new production pieces were of the obvious post-war fittings and finishes...



Bob Hritz

Thanks, Bob!

I hope, from your reply, that collectors can begin to grasp how much original material was still around and, further, that Souval never tried to pretend that its new production was anything other than just that.

[Douglas 5]

So L/58 are postwar replacements .... and their price should be in what range , ??? .... well below any orig war time issue KC .
The die die seams worn ?? ,,,, was it it a new die Souval made or an used one , .. in which case the orig maker should be reconnaisable ??

Douglas

[Dennis J]

Hello Doug,

Firma Souval did create new dies, post-war, for the Knight's Cross, the upper grade devices, to include brilliants, and the Grand Cross. The awards that souval did make, during the 3rd Reich Era continued in production and dies were created for whatever badges and medals were in demand.

Such pioneers as Ken Lane, a US serviceman who remained in Vienna after the war, created catalogs that featured Souval products. Ken lane constantly looked for hoards of original material and also had many items copied, for collectors. I believe Ken passed away in the early 1980s.

I was fortunate to have had a long correspondance, in the 1960s and 1970s, with Herr Umlauff about Souval's production. Unfortunately, when my home was destroyed, all the original correspondance were lost and I am forced to use my recollections.

Bob Hritz

Hi Bob;
I knew Ken Lane very well and bought many "helmets"from him.I know that he sold orig. and reproduction medals and badges but I knew a fellow named Randy Briggs who was his best friend and put in a good word for me so Ken would send me helmets out of the blue and sold them for about $25 ea these were Russian mod 36 and single decal Heer and Luft a couple of times he sent me DD Luft and Heer for $35 ea(this was 1961).I also bought 4 Heer officers hats and a SS officers hat that was made post war from orig. materials and thread that a woman named Hanna made for him in Vienna.The insg. on the hats were 100% orig and would fool many a collector(of the day)The sad thing is my best friend at the time a new dealer and collector named Charlie Snyder got the hat(SS) from me for a SD mod 36 Heer helmet in mint cond.I later found out from Floyd Tubbs that the decal was orig but post war added.

Dennis J