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**HenrikKH** · 03-01-2010, 05:33 PM

That's all very interesting.. But the Juncker EKII 1939 with the nonmagnetic core is still just a normal EKII, and not a Schinkel.
Am I the only one not buying that "theory"

Henrik

**Adrian** · 03-01-2010, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by HenrikKH View Post

That's all very interesting.. But the Juncker EKII 1939 with the nonmagnetic core is still just a normal EKII, and not a Schinkel.

Yes, if you have a preconceived idea of a Schinkel and what shape a 'Schinkel' should be. However, read on.......

From Trevor's thread on the subject:

"A 1939 cross that uses leftover Imperial frame stock? Don't we have a name for those crosses? This cross may never be widely accepted as a Schinkel, and may never command a premium on dealers' websites, but it is, in my firm opinion, a Schinkel in the truest sense of the word."

"Another reason it may not be accepted as a true Schinkel is that the definition of Schinkels has changed over the years. It used to be that a Schinkel was, simply, any 1939-series cross made up using Imperial-era frame dies. However, I have read differing definitions lately, definitions that rely more on the shape rather than the origin and history of the frames."

**streptile** · 03-01-2010, 06:00 PM

Hi Henrik,

Perhaps the best way to answer your question would be for you to define "Schinkel" for us, in your words...

What do you think a "Schinkel" is?

**HenrikKH** · 03-02-2010, 10:27 AM

I just might have a "preconceived idea" of what a Schinkel EKII looks like...

It's the shape and style that counts in my "preconceived idea" and not the dies used. Calling the Juncker 1939 EKII a Schinkel, does make it a Schinkel, shape and style is just not a Schinkel.

Then all Juncker 1939 EKII should be Schinkel crosses?

Henrik

**streptile** · 03-02-2010, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by HenrikKH View Post

Then all Juncker 1939 EKII should be Schinkel crosses?

Why would all Juncker 1939 EK2s be Schinkels?

My definition of "Schinkel" is this:

Any 1939-series Iron Cross made by using frames, frame dies, or other frame tooling from WWI crosses (or earlier).

I invite you, respectfully, to please offer your definition of a "Schinkel," as if you were explaining to someone new in the hobby.

**HenrikKH** · 03-02-2010, 11:50 AM

Your "definition" is just adding confusion to the whole idea of what a 1939 Schinkel EKII looks like. You are the one coming up with the idea of calling the Juncker a Schinkel. Using the same dies, as to the 1914 EKII, is a widely accepted theory, but why start to call those crosses Schinkel. I just see no point in it?

I did give my definition of what a Schinkel is "It's the shape and style that counts, not the dies used"

Henrik

**streptile** · 03-02-2010, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by HenrikKH View Post

Your "definition" is just adding confusion to the whole idea of what a 1939 Schinkel EKII looks like. You are the one coming up with the idea of calling the Juncker a Schinkel...
I did give my definition of what a Schinkel is "It's the shape and style that counts, not the dies used"
Henrik

Well, I disagree. I think my definition is:

a) the original and correct definition.
b) more precise than yours.

You say your definition is:

"It's the shape and style that counts."

Now, how could you be any more confusing and vague than that?

What shape? What style? Can a 1914 cross be a Schinkel? An 1870? Can any small cross with narrow arms be a Schinkel? Does this really help anyone understand what a Schinkel is?

You may continue to believe as you wish, obviously. But I do not find yours a helpful definition.

Originally posted by HenrikKH View Post

Using the same dies, as to the 1914 EKII, is a widely accepted theory, but why start to call those crosses Schinkel. I just see no point in it?

The point is, that is the definition of a Schinkel

! It's like saying: it's a widely accepted theory that matter falls to the earth when dropped from a height. But I don't see the point in calling that "gravity."

**Adrian** · 03-02-2010, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by HenrikKH View Post

Using the same dies, as to the 1914 EKII, is a widely accepted theory
I did give my definition of what a Schinkel is "It's the shape and style that counts, not the dies used"

So where would a Schinkel 'B' fit into your definition?

**streptile** · 03-02-2010, 12:31 PM

Perhaps you've seen this dealer's website:

Antik-Beck

He lists so many crosses as "Schinkels" (for hugely inflated prices) that are clearly not Schinkels.

When you offer a vague definition of a Schinkel ("it's the shape and the style," for example) anyone can offer an opinion on whether a cross conforms to the "Schinkel" style or shape, and you open the door to all kinds of chicanery.

If you offer instead a definition that relies on verifiable facts, you have precision.

**der_alte** · 03-02-2010, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Adrian View Post

So where would a Schinkel 'B' fit into your definition?

Hi,

the Schinkel-B is imo more a Schinkel, than the other crosses we know as Schinkel..

Here are two pics of the draft from the crosses by Karl Friedrich Schinkel:

@Trevor: sorry but i don`t see why the crosses by Juncker should be Schinkel....

What about the Wächtler & Lange EK`s ?
Are they Schinkel, too ?
And what about the all the of Juncker or W&L EK1 ?

**streptile** · 03-02-2010, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by der_alte View Post

@Trevor: sorry but i don`t see why the crosses by Juncker should be Schinkel....

Hi Oli,

Nice to see you here.

Can you explain to me, please... what is a Schinkel?

**der_alte** · 03-02-2010, 05:14 PM

Hi Trevor,

i have my own definition about the Schinkel

The Schinkel-B with the round 3 is a Schinkel and the crosses we know as Schinkel in the psat (Deumer, Meybauer,...).

Here is another draft by Schinkel.

You can see, that the cross looks like the EK2`s from 1914 and the early ones from 1939.
That`s why i only call the S-B round 3 a Schinkel and the known, too.

Now you may ask why i don`t believe, that the Juncker (or other) crosses are Schinkel ?

Ok.....a short and quick answer: i don`t have a painting or draft seen by Schinkel showing this type of EK2 like the Juncker (or AWS).

I only can talk for me, like you do for the Juncker Schinkel......

**streptile** · 03-02-2010, 05:16 PM

So any cross that looks like Schinkel's original design is a Schinkel?

So this is a Schinkel?

PS: The large cross in the illustration you show above is a rejected design for the Grand Cross.

**der_alte** · 03-02-2010, 05:27 PM

Hi Trevor,

if you ask me this way: yes, the 1914 are designed after the draft made by Karl-Friedrich Schinkel (my last shown pic) the same to the early 1939 and Schinkel-B, because they have more similarities than the other crosses from the WW2.

Like i said.....only my opinion.....

**streptile** · 03-02-2010, 05:37 PM

Hi Oli,

You are entitled to your opinion, but here is the problem as I see it:

The original term "Schinkel" was coined to describe 1939-series crosses only that used leftover frames or frame tooling from WWI Iron Crosses.

If you expand the term to include anything that looks like Schinkel's design, you will have people calling all sorts of different crosses Schinkels that are not. In other words, if any cross that "resembles Schinkel's original design" can be a Schinkel, then it will become a matter of opinion what is and is not a Schinkel.

As I said, you are entitled to have your own opinion, just as I may choose to believe that "Round-3" means any cross with a '3' that has a rounded bottom.

Still good to see you here

.

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