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**Douglas 5** · 12-19-2009, 01:05 PM

Mayer put alot of effort into the finishing of their crosses ... and nice ones shown here .
Just to answer the 2 questions asked her :
BH Mayer has 3 core dies .

Douglas

Attached Files

BH Mayers Cores.jpg (65.8 KB, 136 views)

**Douglas 5** · 12-19-2009, 01:09 PM

And the 3 pin sytems :

Douglas

Attached Files

EK1 26 Pin Systems.JPG (150.1 KB, 131 views)

**Niblet** · 12-19-2009, 01:19 PM

Doug thanks for posting these good refrence material!

**Robert P.** · 12-19-2009, 05:27 PM

Thank you, Douglas.

**Darrell** · 12-19-2009, 05:50 PM

How do you know the time-line of the different setups? When was that determined??

**Douglas 5** · 12-19-2009, 07:39 PM

Well Darrell ..... material and manufacturing style and technique give us a very reliable sequence set up . BH Mayer is one of the handfull of early cross producers that started off with using coinsilver frames . This gives us a very fortunate start with frame/pin sets ..... as silver use was very short lived - a few months only --- identifying which one was the first . How the anchor was made and mounted is the other critaria in the progression of the pin sets . As a manufacturer you learned from early mistakes/short commings . Some took over WW1 style pin sets or modified variations thereof in 39. As far as I have seen BH Mayer - like many others - started off with a standing - open crimped anchor , which was modified to a solid crimp and eventualy replaced with a pressed solid anchor . The mounting area or surface to the back of the cross was all along a weak spot which could only be solved by a larger/exstended mounting base or as Mayers and many others ended up doing - by laying the pin anchor down on its side !

Douglas

**Darrell** · 12-19-2009, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by Douglas 5 View Post

... BH Mayer is one of the handfull of early cross producers that started off with using coinsilver frames . ....... as silver use was very short lived - a few months only --- ...

Douglas

What's your source for this?

**Douglas 5** · 12-20-2009, 08:49 AM

The existance of these early first pieces was brought to my attention by an Oberst in 1975 when I bought his L59 EK1 . Regulations required back then the frame to be struck on Ni-alloy only and the only way he could get a silver contence cross was a LDO cross through Rettenmaier .
Besides that I was able to get more recent information from a worker/forman who had worked during the war at the Juncker factory in Berlin . Over time I have picked up a few of these early crosses - , so I have samples from Juncker, BH Mayer , W&L etc . ...and predictably all companies that had made crosses befor 1939 and or were alloud to make KCs - are potential candidates . Metal testing is the only way to verfy 100% . Appearance alone is not enough to tell . Weight with frame thickness and color of the frosting are good indicators and not to forget the die that was used . I have done up a frame study for W&L that shows the color difference in the frosting when put side by side .

Douglas

**Darrell** · 12-20-2009, 11:00 AM

This is all fine Douglas, but you still don't offer any proof that what you say is true. Don't get me wrong, kudo's for doing some good investigative work, however you make generalizations and opinions and turn them into facts.

I still don't see a documented "list" based on LDO / PKZ period paperwork. Or the same paperwork detailing construction methods / materials of the time. See Dietrich's work on DKs and RKs. Pretty hard to argue with that research.

I'm sure Dietrich / George's book will bring forth any information / details with documented information. Could be what you say is 100% correct. All I'm saying is, it seems to be a habit recently that certain people have been stating opinions and put together timelines based on some pretty flimsy facts.

**Niblet** · 12-20-2009, 11:47 AM

Darrell, I see your point and I'm not trying to argue with you or anyone
else,,but I think that your comments to Douglas are inappropriate,,at least here on this thread,,
Douglas is one fo the few folks who ACTUALLY do thier own research and if he has truly spoken to german veterans and factory workers than I feel he is completely justified in making his own conclusions,,

If you decide to believe what he says or not thats up to the individual collector.

But I applaud him and others who at least share there findings and information selflessly.

But like I said I DO see your point and yes your correct as well,,its just that
I think it doesnt apply here,,as Douglas is not demanding that you believe what he says merely presenting his conclusions based on personal research.

I probably shouldnt be sticking my nose in hear,,but I felt inclined to at least make my thoughts known hear,,no offense to anyone

**Darrell** · 12-20-2009, 11:55 AM

I'm not putting down any of the work he's done or his research.

But if you have a timeline developed by "evidence" it might be worthwhile to mention it in the same thread.

At the end of the day you can believe whatever you want. To me, it concludes with the fact by showing me the print not just hearsay no matter who it's from.

**Douglas 5** · 12-20-2009, 12:41 PM

Well Darrell : I wish all of you could have been there when I talked to the professor ... and believe me I tried to get him to come on the forum ,.. now there is a family member that is a member on WMA and I can only hope he may make his presence known , But still he probably has no documents either as he would have shown them by now .
The word of mouth information is all I have and no documents to go with it . Any presentations are backed by the crosses themselves . Knowing what messes others have gotten themselves into I avoid generalizations and own opinions .
Dietrich and others that started back in the 50s and 60s were lucky enough to obtain some still available documentation .
All information I have gotten I will be passing on to the benefit of the collecting community and is not intended to discredit anyones work with documentation .

Douglas

**Darrell** · 12-20-2009, 01:08 PM

No problem Douglas, I'm just saying we have to be very careful what is posted on these forums.

You know as well as I do that articles written in books or on these forums can soon be taken as truth and factual without any basis of proof. We've seen that before. REMEMBER that guy that made a vendetta against an order and did everything in his power to prove it fake? He spread the word and had others convinced it was fake before a dime was spent on any scientific evidence or research being performed? Then when he ran out of options he did go the scientific route. Pained him in the ass when that didn't prove anything one way or the other either .... that's another story, but same end result.

Maybe it is better to state ... In My Opinion or Based on existing Evidence this is a probable timeline of manufacturing types and material.

I have no dog in the fight, could really care less which cross can first, last or in the middle. I applaud your efforts (like I said from the start), but I got confused over how you came to the conclusions you did.

**Douglas 5** · 12-20-2009, 02:18 PM

I have been trying to do timelines in a more concentrated version by putting them into specific Projects , where they do not get interupted . Unfortunatly they do not stay on the first page very long , having to repeat posts over and over again . Relying on pictures from others has been an problem .... so having to obtain every cross or the more important ones has delayed everything .
I do have it stated by the Juncker employee the fallowing ; Juncker and W&L did use coin sheets in 39 and sporaticly between the months of Jan and March of 1940 . In 1940 using up the returned remilled stamping scraps/waste . On hand stock was used and as to numbers the answer was only a vaque : a 'batch' or so .
1) Any frame with 500/1000 silver content or more will discolor quickly ! Coinsilver is either 500/1000 or 600/1000 fine !!
Frame was ploished and cover with clear lacquer ! UV light and finger acids break down the lacquer coating turning it yellowish at first and the lacquer reacting geyish to a light blueish black with the silver on the frame surface ! The worn spots on the corners show a dull greyish color !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2) The color of the frosting is the most interesting feature and very unique .
The frosting acid dissolves the copper from the base metal . Each base metal type will create it's own color of "white" or "Off-white" color .
It is not the Silver , Ni , Zink , Chrome , Alu ... etc that is being removed !! It stays backs and is "RECRISTALIZED" and is what we see as " Frosting " !!
Each base metal has it's own color of white and with variation in the acid the color can go all the way to a cream yellowish off-white !!!!.
Silver frosting is a cold bright white !!
Caution here : as heavy silver plated Nickle can appear very simmular .... and the reason more features are need , like die and Pin Set types and die wear in general with all 1st dies .
Knowing yours dies and the sequence of them is a must .

Note the cold white frosting on the 1st frame and the crisp mint no wear beading ! Suface damage on the right done sometime later into the soft silver .

Attached Files

W&L1st and 2nd Die comparison 1.jpg (196.3 KB, 93 views)

**streptile** · 12-20-2009, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by Darrell View Post

No problem Douglas, I'm just saying we have to be very careful what is posted on these forums.

For what it's worth, I agree with your points, Darrell. I think it is best to qualify any statements that can not be proven by saying "in my opinion," or the like. It can be dangerous when opinions are stated, repeated, and then accepted as fact over time. It clouds our knowledge of what is true, and what is supposed.

I would agree with Douglas' timeline on the Mayers for the following reasons:

The early, swollen pin is often found unmarked. The same style, in a different and cheaper material, is found both marked and unmarked. Then a second style is infrequently found -- always marked. If we stipulate that makers began marking their pins later in the war, and that fine metals became scarce as the war progressed, then we can accept the Mayer timeline presented above. It's good enough for me until something else comes along to disprove it, so I accept it for now -- not as fact, but as the best theory we have based on the available evidence. I think that's the best we can ask for in a case like this.

But I agree 100% with you -- we must be vigilant in distinguishing between something that is proven fact, and something that is supposition or deduction based on our own observations, or discussions with someone who "knows" something. People do rely on this forum (and others) for their information.

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