spanish cross

[Sal Williams]

The pins on the SC's are absolutely postwar, I agree.

To make things clear, I would buy a down-tailed cross ONLY if it's quality and manner of construction and finish was exactly equal (except for the type of eagle) to an accepted wartime version such as those made by Meybauer, Juncker or S&L, and even then I would not pay what a standard version would bring (based on the state of knowledge we have now). The vast bulk of those I have seen would not meet those criteria. I would like to see much closer of those shown here, just on the very remote chance that, except for the pins, one of them MIGHT.

As it stands the vast majority believe these droop tail SCs to be fakes. So trying to sell them would be nearly impossible. Be careful what you say as you may give the impression that he should buy these , which he most definitely should not.

[Leroy]

Be careful what you say as you may give the impression that he should buy these , which he most definitely should not.

I wouldn't tell anyone to buy something they are not comfortable with, after
first learning as much as they can about it.

[Don D.]

Out of all the items shown, perhaps the sports badge and the PAB might be original. Everything else is junk, worth only the value of scrap metal.

[John T]

The only thing of substance that is original in the photo is the gorget, as for the reverse fittings well you have to see back pix, the rest are kaka,

Best,

J

[Leroy]

I thought because the title of the thread was "Spanish Cross", that was all the member was asking about. Apparently, regarding the other items, some are being identified as real by some and fake by others.

You gentlemen are perfectly entitled to your opinions, as I am to mine, and I hope you will note that I never said that any of these Spanish Crosses ARE real. All I have noted is that the pins are definitely postwar (and so these badges were definitely assembled postwar), but that I would like to see closer photos to see if, in my personal opinion, any of the underlying planchets COULD be real.

Among those who post on forums regarding these types, some of whom are very knowledgeable indeed, the vast majority certainly do feel that ANY droop-tail SC is a fake, and I would personally concur that the vast majority ARE fake (including very probably the ones shown here, which, AT BEST, have been completed postwar by the addition of hardware). There are others, however, including some of the most respected figures in military collecting, who do not post on forums on any regular basis, who feel that authentic versions of the "droop-tail" SC DO exist. There is NOT simply just one universally accepted view, no matter how much those on either side of the debate wish there was.

[Sal Williams]

If there are any droop tail SCs that are geniune, and that is a big "if", they are quite rare indeed. So , while you are entitled to your opinion, I think you do a disservice by making it sound like these have some sort of chance. If you would like better pics I can understand that, but you give the impression that there are droop tails out there by the ton that are debatably real. The chances are slim to even come across one of the type that some folks argue are real. So it would be prudent to say that if you see a droop tail stay away unless you really know SCs and are a believer that there are SOME FEW original droop tails (which the majority don't believe is true).

[Brian S]

I thought because the title of the thread was "Spanish Cross", that was all the member was asking about. Apparently, regarding the other items, some are being identified as real by some and fake by others.

You gentlemen are perfectly entitled to your opinions, as I am to mine, and I hope you will note that I never said that any of these Spanish Crosses ARE real. All I have noted is that the pins are definitely postwar (and so these badges were definitely assembled postwar), but that I would like to see closer photos to see if, in my personal opinion, any of the underlying planchets COULD be real.

Among those who post on forums regarding these types, some of whom are very knowledgeable indeed, the vast majority certainly do feel that ANY droop-tail SC is a fake, and I would personally concur that the vast majority ARE fake (including very probably the ones shown here, which, AT BEST, have been completed postwar by the addition of hardware). There are others, however, including some of the most respected figures in military collecting, who do not post on forums on any regular basis, who feel that authentic versions of the "droop-tail" SC DO exist. There is NOT simply just one universally accepted view, no matter how much those on either side of the debate wish there was.

I would very much like to see a SC with a droop tail that you believe to be genuine. I don't see why a calm discussion regarding these would be impossible to imagine regardless of what the majority feel to be real. I want to learn what Leroy thinks might be a genuine piece. As long as everyone respects Leroy's right to his opinion, I would very much like to see a new thread by you Leroy on this subject!!!

[Scott C.]

I don't see why a calm discussion regarding these would be impossible to imagine regardless of what the majority feel to be real.

It already has. Here's but one example: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ighlight=droop

[Leroy]

I think you do a disservice by making it sound like these have some sort of chance. If you would like better pics I can understand that, but you give the impression that there are droop tails out there by the ton that are debatably real. The chances are slim to even come across one of the type that some folks argue are real. So it would be prudent to say that if you see a droop tail stay away unless you really know SCs and are a believer that there are SOME FEW original droop tails (which the majority don't believe is true).

Sal,
As I said before, you are entitled to your opinions. You say what YOU think is prudent and I will say what I think is prudent. Apparently, in your view, the choice is between your way or the highway. I'm afraid I don't accept that. Sorry...
The reality is that ALMOST every droop-tail SC which I think (and others think) has a CHANCE (however remote) of being real comes from the S&L dies, which the crosses in this thread clearly do. Thus, if you are looking for one which MIGHT be real, crosses from S&L are where you look first, although you will certainly be disappointed 99.99999% of the time after a closer look. That being said, S&L-made crosses are where, for me, the search centers and I look closely at EVERY one I see which appears to be from those dies.

Brian,
There have been several discussions of these crosses, both on this Forum and others (one of the worst was mentioned by Scott, but there are several others, too, including a good one with Jacques on GMIC). There are good arguments ON BOTH SIDES regarding these crosses and I have concluded that the reality is that, in the absence of a clear published photograph showing one in wear, the great bulk of collectors will never accept the dispute as favorably resolved. I KNOW that is the case, I RESPECT their feelings, and I have no intention of beating myself to death over and over anymore when that photograph is the only thing which will work for most people. I personally don't feel the need for that photograph (although I would love to see it), nor, apparently, does Detlev Niemann, who has backed one of these S&L types with his guarantee within the last 12 months (and for a price that was roughly double what an ordinary SC would bring). I have said, in those discussions, what I wanted to say about the subject and have, quite frankly, gotten to the point in my life where the degree of personal animosity which ALWAYS surfaces is just repulsive to me.
One good place to start is this thread (which had a lot of interesting material in it, about many different things): http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+board&page=25
Regards,
Leroy

[Sal Williams]

Leroy, I would love to find out if there are real droop tails out there. My point is that when sombody asks in a thread (especially if they may be contemplating buying the items) I think it is only fair to say buying them would not be wise. At this point in time they are not accepted as originals, and even if there are originals the chances of these (or just about any droop tails you may come across) being the type that has a remote chance of being real, is slim to none. You often defend items the community does not accept and that is fine, but be responsible about it and make it clear that yours is the minority view and at this time buying a droop tail SC would be putting money into what is considered by most to be fake.