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**Douglas 5** · 10-12-2009, 01:25 PM

Now this is a very , very important question I have for Thomas ;

Is there brass showing from under the worn spots as marked on the pictures . If it is - I wouild say we are looking at a possible fake .

Douglas

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**Thomas E Hansen** · 10-12-2009, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Douglas 5 View Post

Now this is a very , very important question I have for Thomas ;

Is there brass showing from under the worn spots as marked on the pictures . If it is - I wouild say we are looking at a possible fake .

Douglas

Im checking. Ill get back soon as posible.

Regards Thomas.

**Robert P.** · 10-12-2009, 04:35 PM

Here are the two again side by side. I may be mistaken, it wouldn't be the first time, but I thought they looked alike...

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**Roglebk** · 10-12-2009, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Douglas 5 View Post

Now this is a very , very important question I have for Thomas ;

Is there brass showing from under the worn spots as marked on the pictures . If it is - I wouild say we are looking at a possible fake .

Douglas

Hi Douglas, why would brass frames suggest it's a fake? Was under the impression that some war time crosses had plated brass frames?

**Roglebk** · 10-12-2009, 06:49 PM

"Is this the same frame? I can't quite say myself, as I see some differences and some similarities."

Hi Trev, the one started this thread has not the same frame as yours/mine 1914/39 but it could be a case of reworked die.

The thread starter got the same RK-numbers core as a couple of other alledged Juncker but not the same frame. Had the opportunity to close in hand compare 2 of the 1914/1939 & one of of the alledged J with "RK numbers core".
If the thread starter is included in the study there is a lot to consider. Imo we have crosses that were made over a larger period of time by the same maker.

First the 1914/39 ones somewhere in the 30's, there's a dead match 1914 EKI with hardware that suggests that and a 1870 EKII. No flaws and die cracks on those.

Second the alledged J with RK-numbers core and crosshatched frames. Have handled one and got extremly good close ups of another. The core die wear matches and the frame die wear too, notably is a die crack that runs the whole length of 7 o' clock arm on both of them. Will not guess when those are made, but at least after the 1914/39 ones.

Third we have the cross that started the thread, it got the same core as the 2 above but with more flaws, notable is the one on the 3 in 1813. The frames on this one could well be a remade die of the ones above, a remake where the cross hatching was lost, but it needs to be studied further.

My very own theory is that all those were made by the same maker and believe that one to be Juncker. Mainly because of the overall quality, crosshatching, hump and likeness to the Juncker RK-numbers.

Now go on and kill it! A Theory is only good until a better one comes along.

Are we havin fun yet? At least i am

Would like to add that i do not own any of them anymore, sold all 3 to nice forum folks so if those turns out to be fake will hit myself very hard over the head with a 2X4 and refund in full. 2 of them got DN COA's so there's no big loss, exept for the hurt ego.

**Douglas 5** · 10-13-2009, 07:06 AM

Carl :
I am not aware of any any brass plated frames . What are they plating on the frame ? If it is iron then they should be magnetic . That would suggest these frames are plated 2 times . Nickel over brass over something else ???
Yes Robert - those are the same frames - the die is very worn on the one .

Douglas

**Roglebk** · 10-13-2009, 04:06 PM

Hi Douglas, i do not understand your last post. First you wrote:

"Is there brass showing from under the worn spots as marked on the pictures . If it is - I wouild say we are looking at a possible fake ."

I answered:

"why would brass frames suggest it's a fake? Was under the impression that some war time crosses had plated brass frames?"

You suggested that, if there is brass showing, the cross could be a fake?

You taught me to look for different color of the metal on the worn spots and that shows that the frames are plated and not solid. Would not a frame with base metal made of high copper content show some Brass color on the worn spots? Why would such a cross be fake?

**Roglebk** · 10-13-2009, 04:18 PM

Douglas> Here's the thread about the Brass/Copper colored base metal on a Übergrösse. Do you think that is fake too? http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=338047

**Douglas 5** · 10-13-2009, 05:58 PM

Had a look and posts 26 and 27 in that thread explains it perfectly .
Common base metal planchets used on EKs are : 800 fine silver, Coin silver , German Silver = Nickel alloy , . Ni - alloy frames which were plated with silver of varying purity . Frames were never stamped out of solid brass or tombak and plated . As mentioned on frames one can find spots where alloy components are blistering/oxidizing out on the surface , cooper usualy .
The U'bergross EK is not a fake .... a Ni-alloy stamped frame that has been plated . Cores were stamped out of pure tombak/brass - never frames .

Douglas

**Roglebk** · 10-14-2009, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Douglas 5 View Post

Had a look and posts 26 and 27 in that thread explains it perfectly .
Common base metal planchets used on EKs are : 800 fine silver, Coin silver , German Silver = Nickel alloy , . Ni - alloy frames which were plated with silver of varying purity . Frames were never stamped out of solid brass or tombak and plated . As mentioned on frames one can find spots where alloy components are blistering/oxidizing out on the surface , cooper usualy .
The U'bergross EK is not a fake .... a Ni-alloy stamped frame that has been plated . Cores were stamped out of pure tombak/brass - never frames .

Douglas

Douglas> No war time frames yet found are made of Brass, i'm ok with that but some of the 'one piece Schinkel' are stamped in Brass (or was it Bronze?)
and Silver plated. Why not stamp frames out of Bronze or Brass? There are known examples with Aluminium frames so why not other metals? Especially late in war when certain metals got scarce, or early before the regulations. Just thinking outside a very big box, hehe.

(Edit: Talked with Ben about the one piece Schinkel and he remembers a non magnetic one which at least had Brass showing under the Silver plating & paint. Mine do not show any brass color, it's Silver plated on some other non magnetic base metal)

**Thomas E Hansen** · 10-14-2009, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Roglebk View Post

Douglas> No war time frames yet found are made of Brass, i'm ok with that but some of the 'one piece Schinkel' are stamped in Brass (or was it Bronze?)
and Silver plated. Why not stamp frames out of Bronze or Brass? There are known examples with Aluminium frames so why not other metals? Especially late in war when certain metals got scarce, or early before the regulations. Just thinking outside a very big box, hehe.

(Edit: Talked with Ben about the one piece Schinkel and he remembers a non magnetic one which at least had Brass showing under the Silver plating & paint. Mine do not show any brass color, it's Silver plated on some other non magnetic base metal)

I got the Juncker today. Please notice the ribs on the picture.
The core is loose just like on the others of my Junckers.

Regards Thomas.

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