Spanienkreuz

[David Tiffin]

I'm not so sure it was a theory but more of a question.

[W. C. Stump]

I'LL BE BOLD AND GO AGAIN ON THE GROUND I DARE TO TREAD AGAIN

I would like to ask if it is known or not if the various manufacturers had different dies for each variation of the Spanish Cross: one for swords and one for without swords??

[Gordon Williamson]

It would not seem to make any economic sense to produce two expensive sets of dies which were 90% identical. Much more sensible to stamp out blanks with swords only, then have a small, cheaper, cropping tool to remove the swords at this stage, then each type with or without swords have the central swastika disc, eagles, pin & hinge fitted etc. (What I can't visualise is what any cropping tool could look like that would remove the swords AFTER the eagles had been added like the bronze one shown on the other thread. It looks to me like a physical impossibility).

All that would be required would be a small jig to hold the blank and shearing punches to crop of the swords at their base. No different in concept to the process for voiding out the centres of many other badges.

I have no idea whether Meybauer or any other Spanienkreuz maker did this but the process itself is perfectly valid and used on other awards- the air gunner badges which are clearly made from radio op badges with the lightning bolts cropped off. It does of course however make rare awards like the Spanienkreuz in Silver with Swords ripe for faking by having a jeweller remove the swords from a more common "with Swords" example.


Gordon

[Bill M]

--Wouldn't it also be possible that a different back half was used that blocked the flow of metal into the sword parts of the front half? Less expensive than a second complete set as the 'second' back would be devoid of detail, no?

[Gordon Williamson]

Bill,

That would work only with a casting, but these were die struck.

Gordon

[Ron Birch]

How expensive are die's, or is it more in line of time consuming to make them. Does anybody have a number? Do you know the process of making dies and wouldn't they be made in house? I'm just wondering if the "expense" of die's may be a little exaggerated.

[Gordon Williamson]

Dies are extremely expensive to make. Certainly before the days of lazer cutting, there had to be a huge number of man-hours invested by very highly skilled toolmakers, plus the cost of the high grade steel - a carefully husbanded commodity in a wartime economy.

Even working with soft materials such as modern plastics, a model company will invest many tens of thousands of $ in the tooling and have to sell huge amounts of the item to recoup their costs.

Gordon

[Chris Boonzaier]

Taking the swords off of an unfinished cross is the work of a couple of minutes for a profi.
I dont know where or why this theory of 2 sets of dies comes from and think it is muddying the waters a bit.
Once the front disc and eagles are on it would seem to be a bit late to start cutting and filing (and why bother ? I assume the OKW ordered crosses with and without swords).

[W. C. Stump]

WE AGREE FOR ONCE

I agree with Chris. The only reason for a Spanish Cross without swords to be made would be to fill an order, and at that time from the OKW. Then it would have been done prior to final finishing and shipping. If one encounters one with swords missing the swords and there is obvious evidence of after finishing removal, then you would find reason to suspect that a "bugger is in the wood pile". In the case of the silver one I have been posting for months, was never touched after final finishing had been completed PERIOD. I have personally examined, in fine detail, this Meybauer Spanish Cross Without Swords and it has not been altered in any way. And who ever came up with the "theory" of firms having two dies has went to the "R J. K University, class of Advanced Theorization 101" and has a carved Wooden Skull sitting on the mantle.. Of course this is just my humble opinion.

[Rick Research]

Keep to the merits--and obvious lack of them--of the BADGES under discussion. Rambling about the imaginary mental shortcomings of everyone with contrary opinions will result in editorial action, end of THAT discussion... AGAIN!

REAL research and scholarship is devoted to the reality of what was, not speculation of what "might have" been. Speculation may add to knowledge--or obscure it.

The object of all the serious authors of detailed and thorough specialized articles for this website is to clarify, not obscure. That is precisely the point where so many so-called reference books fail all collectors... by prematurely rushing into print as "fact" things which can never be established as fact.

Our agreed upon general policy is Zero Tolerance for ANYTHING dubious. If odd, bizarre, and privately arranged period items "fall through the cracks," so be it. We seek here the General Principle of what is and is not "good," as a guide not only for others but also for ourselves. "Not in my collection" is the standard here, not what is in anyone else's.

That is not to say that all of us are not entirely aware of legions of "variants" in every area of what we collect--but the simple assertion that "everything goes" is what continues to keep forgers and fake sellers in new model automobiles and beach front property! If the occasional very strange item is temporaily excluded until a definitive conclusion can be reached, so be it.

Because once something BAD has been "accepted" in print, it is there forever.

Just as the Catholic Church requires "proof" before canonization, it is the sole and complete responsibility of anyone with anything dubious to prove that it is GOOD, not for everyone else to prove the negative that it is not.

WHATEVER the item in question may be.

[W. C. Stump]

SIMPLE ANSWERS PLEASE

Rick you said this: "Our agreed upon general policy is Zero Tolerance for ANYTHING dubious. If odd, bizarre, and privately arranged period items "fall through the cracks," so be it. We seek here the General Principle of what is and is not "good," as a guide not only for others but also for ourselves. "Not in my collection" is the standard here, not what is in anyone else's."

1. Who is "OUR"?

2. Who decides what is "DUBIOUS"?

3. What has "Not in my collection" have to do with this thread?

Many, especially myself, are simply wanting to find out if the Spanish Cross With Swords, ANY Spanish Cross With Swords, was modified to make the variation without swords. Information is all that is wanted. For me I only want FACTUAL EVIDENCE, fair and balanced facts, or the preponderance of circumstantial evidence to determine the answer to my questions and inquires. Nothing more or less do I ask.

[Rick Research]

ZAV

[Gordon Williamson]

I will not lock down this thread at this point, so long as it keeps to discussing the Spanienkreuz, but please keep personalities out of it.
For the avoidance of doubt, any posts which contain comments about specific individuals WILL be edited.

If anyone has specific theories on any badge , its maker, its manufacturing process fine, discuss it, research it and if someone finds interesting and significant facts, write it up and present it, but please don't let what could be interesting and informative threads deteriorate into squabbles.

GOrdon

[W. C. Stump]

ALL I HAVE ASKED

Originally posted by Gordon Williamson
I will not lock down this thread at this point, so long as it keeps to discussing the Spanienkreuz, but please keep personalities out of it.
For the avoidance of doubt, any posts which contain comments about specific individuals WILL be edited.

If anyone has specific theories on any badge , its maker, its manufacturing process fine, discuss it, research it and if someone finds interesting and significant facts, write it up and present it, but please don't let what could be interesting and informative threads deteriorate into squabbles.

GOrdon

Gordon all I have asked are simple questions and all I get is ZAV, someone taking great pleasure to disrupt my simple attempt to uncover information about the Spanish Cross, and creating SQUABBLES. I am glad that you made the guideline clear and maybe we can continue without all the ZAV .