Unmarked Knights Cross

[chasing history]

Nickel or silver or both

It would be very interesting to see if the Rittner listed was a cousin
The cross is almost certainly a Juncker, but doesn't have any markings. You say it has silver frames. Are you sure? How do you know? If they were silver frames they should at least have an 800 marking.

If of early war manufacture it is likely neusilber and thus not marked as such. Until better photos are shown lets wait and see

So what do you think now that you have seen more of the pictures, as my question in consensus......I took it to the jewelers to have it weighed and measured and he was sure it was at least 70% silver, but I could have it shipped out to be anaylised if I wished. I did not ask him specifically where he thought the silver was......the frame which is a good question.
I really don't know more, other than the KC weight, according to his scale, is 26 grams including push pins and ribbon, which is lighter than it should be according to what I have read. And that it measures 48.5 across and up.

Nickel is heavier than silver, no?

[chasing history]

time line

Considering all the evidence and timelines ...

1. It isn't marked with Silver content (800)
2. ... and it isn't marked L/12 either ....

I would say anywhere from 1939 to1941.

You got to the post just before me! Thanks for the time line estimate.

[chasing history]

Questions

As said by Darrell only one Rittner listed on OdR file.Arthur.
I would go to Bundesarchiv in Koblenz or WAst in Berlin.
I dont know the current location for the OdR Commission.
Seiler (yank in uk)

Would the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz have different info than the one Freiburg? And specifically what info would they have? And is WAst not specifically for those killed in action? Who is the OdR commission and what could they do to help?

[unruhjonny]

(sorry for the late responce)

Many thanks for posting the story!
I came here late enough that I'm glad I had an email notification of your post because the story was an interesting read, I had no idea that anyone would have been moved that much(!) - I would have REALLY missed out had I come here to only read the edited version of your post.

My grandfather and his older brother were both recuited into the Wermacht after thier village was saved from the Russians - albiet the villiage was saved a little too late for my great-grandfather, or my grandfathers eldest brother; they had already both been taken & killed by the russians.

My grandfather too rarely mentioned the war, and I found out first hand this past summer that his brother REALLY doesn't want to talk about the time period... but at least he divulged some information about my grandfathers posting ect...

You're very fortunate to have aqquired these items, and learnt so much.
Many of these stories seem to die with the people who lived them out.


I have only one memory of him mentioning his wartime involvement, and apparently it was a story he shared with no one else.
(He died from a workplace accident over 17 years ago, so his personal stories all died then too.)

I would love to learn of the postings that my grandfathers brother had, and what he did ect, but I am sure I cannot get that information out of him... just inquiring about one uniform he was pictured in seemed to be stressful enough ~ none of his older sisters (or his wife) seemd to understnad why he was so irritated(!) - his irritation at being questioned just shows me that in the 63 years which have passed since the fall of the "Reich", that he has not shared any of his stories...

[unruhjonny]

sorry, one more thing;

where would I want to stop if I was interested in seeing the military history of my grandfather or his brother - feel free to pm/email me an answer.

Thanks!

[Steinar]

Hello. This is a really nice history.

I just wanted to get a few facts out here.

I'm really not sure who won this KC in the first place, but based on the facts, that this is an early Juncker KC from 1939 - 1941 I can't see how this was awarded to a Kurt Rittner.
He is not listen in http://www.das-ritterkreuz.de and the only Rittner there got his KC in late 1942

Perhaps he got this KC as a gift, after a dear friend of him died in action, a friend with no close family... just a thought! Who knows

[Roglebk]

Buttons 'n pins

"Thanks for all repsonses. It came that way with the pins, I had always thought the pins were to attach the medal to the uniform somehow so nice to get that clarified."

Just want to clarify that the pins (#1 on pic) were probably not used to pin the cross to the uniform. The snap fasteners(#2) on the other hand was used for that imo.

[Steinar]

it looks like its never been worn, at least it looks like that from these pictures... not even a scratch on the paint on the 1813 side..

its really a beauty

[chasing history]

Assist in search

Hi Unruhjonny,

www.feldgrau.com/contacts.html
That will get you a list of Military records organizations to contact in Germany and explains them pretty well. I believe I emailed the central office, the 2nd listing and they redirected my email to Freiberg which to my knowledge is where the Wehrmacht personnel service records are kept. And they responded. There is a time factor, it takes a while. My inquiry started in September and I am on route now I hope to receiving the photocopy of my father's file in the mail. I may have been faster than some. The archivist did give me a breakdown as to what they found in the file via email. And there is a cost attached for them to do the research. But they send all of that info out, sometimes it is in German, sometimes not.

I am glad my story was able to help.

You too, have a very interesting story in your family history. Being killed/taken over by the Russians was a big fear for many Germans for many years - throughout history they feared Ivan. From what I know, the fear and threat of approaching communists was one of Hitler's biggest pushes to win over the population.

It would be interesting to find out the reason for your family coming to Canada, it may seem obvious, but often is not. If you can get your grandfather talk, maybe showing up at his door with his favourite bottle of schnapps is just the thing. Or maybe he likes to play cards? Or maybe just say look I'm really interested. But it is hard and often a veteran's privacy needs to be respected.

let me know how thing go,
CH

sorry, one more thing;

where would I want to stop if I was interested in seeing the military history of my grandfather or his brother - feel free to pm/email me an answer.

Thanks!

[chasing history]

Yes, that could be, too. I always wondered since it's been in my possession as it seems you could pin yourself and ouch........but from what I have read, the KC's weren't the easiest to put on, and often the receivers found any way possible to fasten them.
The other thought I had was that it was fastened to a medal board of somekind.
CH

"Thanks for all repsonses. It came that way with the pins, I had always thought the pins were to attach the medal to the uniform somehow so nice to get that clarified."

Just want to clarify that the pins (#1 on pic) were probably not used to pin the cross to the uniform. The snap fasteners(#2) on the other hand was used for that imo.

[chasing history]

If it is positive, without a doubt, that it is an early Juncker, between those years, then yes, it would not have been awarded to my dad.

You are right; it could have been, as a friend of mine has so eloquently put - 'maybe he bought it from a down on his luck fellow veteran in an act of charity and a final act of comradeship.'

Yet, my father, was not a wealthy man, in fact in the last years was just making ends meet. But he was an astute man, and must have known the value of the KC. Yet, he kept it in the box in the posted picture, hidden away in a secret cabinet with his films only to be found upon his passing. They almost missed the cabinet all together, had it not been for the cleaners. So it must have meant something to him. Nor did anyone know he had it.

When they opened the box, the remaining relatives in Germany thought it to be a 1st class Iron Cross. So in March /08, it made the trip across the sea to me. And that is what I thought it was until I looked it up.

With all due respect, I believe, personally, it would be impossible for the KC lists to be definitive. Late in the war, no. I think it is safe to say that in the chaotic final weeks/months of the war, if it missed documentation in the soldier's service record book, it would not have been documented. I think everyone in Berlin was on the run from the Russians for good reason.

What was the documentation process that a KC went through?

CH

Hello. This is a really nice history.

I just wanted to get a few facts out here.

I'm really not sure who won this KC in the first place, but based on the facts, that this is an early Juncker KC from 1939 - 1941 I can't see how this was awarded to a Kurt Rittner.
He is not listen in http://www.das-ritterkreuz.de and the only Rittner there got his KC in late 1942

Perhaps he got this KC as a gift, after a dear friend of him died in action, a friend with no close family... just a thought! Who knows