Knight Cross questions ??

[Pascal H.]

I have some questions I would like to ask you about the Knights Cross in general. Not all of them at once but one after another and I think the end result can be quite interesting.

I am doing a bit of a study of the Knight Cross but still have a lot of unanswered questions, and I think the best place were to find some of the answers is right here on this fine forum.
It has all to do about the amount of wartime Knight Crosses.

I think we all agree that the total of awarded Knight Crosses is between 7.315 and 7.320, but how many Knight Crosses do you think were actually produced?

Pascal

[George Stimson]

How many do I think?

Maybe about twice your figures. (I think. )

[Tiger 1]

A related question would be how many still exist? Given the almost 60 years having past since the war for these things to get lost or destroyed.

[Ed Tainton]

Knights Cross

Hard question to answer. I would say double. I know there are many crosses taken by Canadian troops and they are still hidden away, maybe never found. A lot of Germans imigrated here and brought there medals with them. I know of three families who have some badges & medals put away, afraid to show them. I have been communicating with them but you never know. At a plant near here I must have met 20 or 30 immigrants with Tank Desroyer and Tank driver back grounds.You have to work slowly insuring they will not be procecuted. . So theres lots out there.

Facinating hobby

[Pascal H.]

Thank you all for your input so far.

So you think that the total produced Knight Crosses is about 15.000? This is more than I had in mind but of course this number is only a guess because (to my knowledge) there is no record of the total produced RK’s.
Let us see what we have so far;

Total produced RK’s: 15.000.
Total awarded RK’s: 7.315.

This will bring us naturally to Tiger 1’s question what percentage of the total produced RK’s do you think still exist?

Pascal

[Dave Kane]

I feel there is a lot less out there in collections than most think! Even less, hidden or forgotten about.
Of the 2,500 +/- members and of those solely focusing on iron crosses so far we have 'seen' (maybe) 25 original RK's.

[Gerd Becker]

Hi all,
when you think, that Göring(OK, he was crazy) had maybe 10 of his Grand Crosses, then the soldiers, who could afford, had more than one RK, too. But IMO too, 15.000 of them were produced, maybe some more.
There are a lot of KC´s out there, that are still with the recipient or the family, i guess. But if you think, that the recipients become 80,90 years these days, maybe there will come up more of them in the next years. The most families dosn´t hold in honour the medals of their Fathers and Grandfathers, so it gets sold.
Gerd

[Pascal H.]

Not a lot of reactions to my last question.

I myself have the same opinion as Kurt. I don’t think that many (real) RK’s survived the last 60 years.

I am going to stick my neck out and please correct me if you think I’m wrong , I don’t think more then 15% of all the produced RK’s still exist .

I would welcome some more opinions on how many of the approx. 15.000 RK’s you think are still around?

Thanks,
Pascal

[Rich G]

I have a few thoughts on this...

Do you recall the story that at the end of the war a whole box load of K&Q RK's was found somewhere? I don't know the full details or whether this story is true but that would lead me to believe maybe the amount of RK's made may be more than double actually awarded.

To work this out we'd have to look at all the official makers, their approximate product numbers (based on those existing today), did the dies survive the war(S&L, K&Q), or were they destroyed (in the case of Juncker)...
If the dies survived the war, we'd have to assume they were producing the RK until the factory was over-run.
If destroyed then most likely all stocks were depleted.
So, official makers are:

Juncker
Godet/Zimmermann
S&L
Shinkle

Any others?

We know Juncker dies were destroyed, and that S&L and K&Q dies survived. What about the others?



As for the surviving numbers... does any one know how many RKT's actually the survived the war? If that was known then I'd say that would be a good point to start counting from, then add the number awarded posthumously, then the surplus lying around at the end of the war. After that, deduct a percentage which have been lost, purposely destroyed or thrown away.
There could well be 100's of RK's still hidden away in Russia.

Rich

[Bill Schwarz]

This is a real good question , one of which I always wondered myself. I would say about 18,000. Did they get a new RK when they got the oak's and swords. Replacements, 2nd set?

Bill S.

[Pascal H.]

Yes Bill they did get a new RK when they received a higher grade of the RK.

Pascal

[Dave Kane]

Pascal, your response is intriguing! I'd like to hear more and certainly if you have something to support the assertation I would like to see it. I have never heard of this before and any photo I have seen hasn't shown an additional 'case' being given....
Gordon suggested Knight's Crosses being given as a gift but we haven't heard further ( SS S&L w/flaw ) however I am interested in this 'duplication' of awards
KD

[Pascal H.]

Hi Kurt,

The case is that when some (I can’t say all because there is no evidence of this) of the RKT received their Oakleaves or higher grade they would receive a new RK with it. Reason for this could be that after the ceremony they would for propaganda purposes take (mostly colour) pictures of the RKT with their newly awarded awards. This is the reason why so many RKT are on these pictures with brand new RK’s even when they were awarded their RK years before.

This explanation is of an OL recipient who when receiving his OL 1943 also received a brand new RK.

Pascal

[Brian S]

For example, Heinrich Paepcke was posthumously awarded a new RK w/Oakleaves. But, in step with above estimates, he had only two original RK's to his name. And both survived.

I would guess fifteen thousand survived which include overstocks. How many were incinerated in tanks, crashed and burned with planes, blown to bits with artillery and bomb hits, etc.... ? Probably at least as many as the 'overstocks'.

Do these numbers include the round cornered example?