Spangen contained in deluxe Ritterkreuz presentation cases

[Biro]

A question for our esteemed author and friend Dietrich - or anyone else who cares to answer it!

The beautiful and rare Red deluxe presentation cases containing the RK and 1st and 2nd class Wiederholungsspangen were first given after the polish campaign - von Brauchitsch received his October 27th 1939 (that's only about 60 days after the outbreak of WW2). You can see an example of this presentation case in Dietrichs new book on page 237... indeed, it may actually BE von Brauchitsch's cased set (there is no indication either way).

Both spangen contained in the case are the 'Juncker style' pieces which we know are early, but neither of the spangen are 1st pattern. Both are standard.

I wonder if Dietrich could confirm whether this is in fact von Brauchitsch's cased awards, and therefore does this imply that the 'scalloped date bar' was in production for less than 60 days before Juncker reverted to the standard pattern?

Marshall

[tinmantis]

also that's implying spangen began being produced at outbreak of war only
interesting
jon

[magprint]

.

[Dietrich Maerz]

The set is not the one of von Brauchitsch. The Spangen are Juncker made and are marked L/12. I think this is one of the sets that were still stored for awarding.

Dietrich

[Kevin V.]

http://www.der-brillanten.com/knight...uz/theset.html

WOW, I did not know that website! Excellent work.

Thanks
Kevin

[Pieter Verbruggen]

The first set's awarded in september 1939 contained Juncker KC and the two spanges (L/12 MM, ....Dietrich,I know... but this is my opnion based up on survived examples).
The later sets contained a Godet KC and two iron crosses.
Pieter.

"WOW, I did not know that website! Excellent work."

Thanks
Kevin<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
...Kevin, but you know my collection...

[Kevin V.]

The first set's awarded in september 1939 contained Juncker KC and the two spanges (L/12 MM, ....Dietrich,I know... but this is my opnion based up on survived examples).
The later sets contained a Godet KC and two iron crosses.
Pieter.

"WOW, I did not know that website! Excellent work."

Thanks
Kevin<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
...Kevin, but you know my collection...

Yes I know Pieter. I still remember when I had some of the pieces in my hands.
I could not sleep that night as I was so ....

[Dietrich Maerz]

The first set's awarded in september 1939 contained Juncker KC and the two spanges (L/12 MM, ....Dietrich,I know... but this is my opinion based up on survived examples). The later sets contained a Godet KC and two iron crosses.

I know your opinion and this is something that will never disappear in the hobby: opinions. This was also one of the reasons I decided not to use too many opinions in my book but rather more facts.
In the case of the LDO-numbers I use the official announcement dated March 1st. 1941 that numbers are introduced and used. And I will stick with this document till somebody shows me that an earlier document proves to me that LDO numbers were in use in September 1939 i.e. before the LDO was even founded.

I think the easy answer is what I already remarked to you several times ...

...Kevin, but you know my collection...

I certainly hope you did NOT provide some of the pieces to the website ...

Dietrich

[StefanK.]

Concerning the Godet Set:

Are all awards (KC, EK1, EK2) marked (21) ?


Stefan

[Biro]

The set is not the one of von Brauchitsch. The Spangen are Juncker made and are marked L/12. I think this is one of the sets that were still stored for awarding.

Dietrich

Thanks Dietrich - this answers my question about that particular set...

The first set's awarded in Sept. 1939 contained Juncker KC and the two spanges (L/12 MM, ....Dietrich,I know... but this is my opnion based up on survived examples).Pieter...

Thank you Pieter - you have no doubt seen some of these early September awarded sets... were the spangen 1st Pattern examples?

Marshall

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Thanks Dietrich - this answers my question about that particular set...



Thank you Pieter - you have no doubt seen some of these early September awarded sets... were the spangen 1st Pattern examples?

Marshall

2°pattern.
Pieter.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Can we now assume that all we supposed we knew about L/ numbers is Bullshot..... or that the supposed origin and pedigree of L/ marked items handed out in 1939 is hokey?

I tend to believe the reserch that dates the introduction of the L/ numbers....

What is the evidence that these were awarded before the date of the L/ numbers coming into being?

[Sal Williams]

Why can't i see the website subsections? It asks for a password but I see no place to "sign up" for the site

[Jeff V]

This has turned into a very interesting thread. If the presentation awarded spangen were 2nd pattern can this mean that the production of 1st and 2nd pattern spangen was concurrent, and the scalloped design of the first pattern was replaced by the 2nd pattern while both were in production. I find it a little hard to believe the 1st pattern was only in production for 60 days, although I guess anything is possible. best wishes,
jeff

[Dietrich Maerz]

I tend to believe the reserch that dates the introduction of the L/ numbers....

Hello Mr. Boonzaier,

thanks for dropping in ....

The tendency "to believe" something or not must be based on something (in normal cases ....). Could be a documen but- of course - it could also have other reasons....

When I started to dive into this subject I said to myself that I will not divulge further "tendencies", "believes" or "opinions" but rather stick to what i can find in original documents.

I'm sure you can read the attached article form the Uniformenmarkt of 1. March 1941 since you are capable of reading German language.

I might point your valuable attention to the part "erhielt soeben ein Kennzeichen (Herstellernummer),...". Doesn't really leave room for interpretation, or?

So just to have a good discussion let me ask you this:

- on what do you base your tendency?
- why do you think this document is wrong?
- when do YOU think the LDO number was introduced and what evidence do you have to contradict the article below without a shadow of a doubt?

Just make my point clear: I don't care when the numbers were introduced. I only present the facts as I found them in the original paperwork.

Of course, on a more personal level, I found it extremely hard to understand that one talks about stamping with LDO-numbers long before the LDO was even thought of or founded. This date is also very well documented: 15. July 1940 in Berlin. But I have seen stranger things in this hobby....

Dietrich