Grand Cross

[Dez H]

Did anyone see the Grand Cross that detlev had in his latest update?

Iron center,vaulted core with nice detailed die struck swastika and dates. Frame due to fire slightly corroded. Weight 58 Gramms. This cross is reportedly from the company Zimmermann,that was bombed and burned in early 1945. The burned and damaged medals from their productions were stored,but due to that fire and wetness the cross has rost. A cheap alternative

item: 7040




Thoughts? Comments???

[Klaus O.]

Dez,

I can only tell you that a collector/dealer at the Militaria Show in Illingen had the Gran Cross 1813 and 1870 in the same conditions, telling me more and less the story. He added that they came from East Germany, if I remember correctly. Maybe Detlev bought one of them from him... who knows?

Ciao,

Claudio

[Dez H]

Hello Claudio

It is my understanding that C.E. Juncker was the only manufacture of the Grand Cross of 1939. However these dies did survive the war and were used to make restrikes of the Grand Cross, for whatever reason. The core on this piece does not resemble a Juncker GK at all. There was only one recipient, and even if the Germans did win the war there would only have been a handful of awarded pieces, going by previous wars perhaps 6. So with such a small number being awarded and private purchase pieces bought why would more than one maker need to tool up for these?

[Gordon Williamson]

Dez,

You are wrong, there was certainly more than one manufacturer of the Grand Cross. The piece received by Göring is believed to have been a Juncker, but as it was destroyed no one will ever know for sure. Certainly others he bought were sourced from Juncker, except for the platinum-onyx one of course.

The type shown by Detlev is one I'm aware of. The ring dips into the edge of the frame only very slightly, less so than the Juncker type. The only thing I was unaware of was the connection to Zimmermann. This type came in a blue case almost identical to that for the RK of the KVK. This type is also shown in the book by Harald Geissler and in the book on the EK by the Deutsches Ordensmuseum. The known surviving examples of the 10 prototypes of the style of GK with gold outer frame are of this type.

I would trust one of these before I'd trust an L/12 Juncker type.

[Dez H]

Hello Gordon

I was hoping you would see this thread and have some comments to add. Ok I can accept what you are saying, even though from the point of view of the medal manufactures it makes no financial sense. Here is a picture of Reichsmarschal Goring with his GK, which I believe is a Juncker? High swastika, eye dips into the frames. Gordon have you ever encountered pictures of Goring with his onyx GK or wearing a Grand Cross that does not appear to be of Juncker origin?

Its not that I want to purchase one of these pieces, far from it, I just find the mystery that surrounds the 1939 GK and the sole recipient fascinating.

[Dez H]

Ok it would probably help if I added the picture in the first place..

[Dez H]

Here is another shot of RM Goring with his GK, unfortunately not much can be obtained from this picture due to the poor quality.



Is that even a real set of medals or just been added to the picture by the artist?

[Gordon Williamson]

Dez,

Your point about not needing many manufacturers involved with such a rare award is logical, but I'm afraid logic doesn't always work with such things. Look at the Oakleaves with Swords, only 188 awarded but at least four known manufacturers. Likewise the RK of the KVK, several known manufacturers - only a few hundred awarded.
The thing is that when these awards were instituted, there would be no way of knowing in advance how many would be awarded and thus how many would ultimately be needed so its not surprising that a few firms would tool up in anticipation of orders. (and we are only taking of two, possibly three firms here, not dozens).

In fact the original Reichsgesetzblatt anouncing the new 1939 Iron Crosses shows a Grand Cross with a 3/4 eye, like the earliest Knights Crosses. If you look closely at the black/white pic of Göring you posted, it seems to show this 3/4 eye type, though the pic does appear to have been retouched.

I don't think you could say from the colour pic that it is a Juncker Grand Cross. There is a difference in the degree to which the eye dips into the frame between the Juncker and what Detlev has identified as a Zimmermann type, but not so much that you could tell the difference from this photo. The Zimmermann type also has a high swastika, just about level with the inner ribbed frame, though this isn't too apparent from Detlev's photos.

I have seen photos of the Onyx GK in its custom solid silver case with Reichsmarschall emblem on the lid (in fact the case contained two GK). Haven't seen any photos that would allow certain identification of it being worn. The black centre is very shiny, so I don't think the one in the colour pic is one of these.