Dipping ring KC picture from 1942

[Sonderkommando]

Here's a pic I found that might be of interest to you guys that collect KC's. It is from the 12/12/1942 and is a pic of Generalmajor Carl Rodenburg with what appears to be a dipping ring KC....
I have compared it to the K&Q KC's and it appears different in the fact that the ring in the pic goes down below the top of the frame where as with the K&Q KC's the ring stops about level with the top of the frame.

Any thoughts on this one?




Brett

[Sonderkommando]

Closer....

[Sonderkommando]

Note that on this K&Q KC, even though it has the large doughnut style ring like the one in the above picture it is still about level with the top of the frame.

[Dave Kane]

Brett...it sure looks like the shape of a K&Q and because of the upward cant of the bottom it appears that the thick ring extends in to the frame..

Now, if indeed it is a K&Q the '42 date is significant!

[Sonderkommando]

Dave,
You are right to a degree with the cant of the cross making it appear to go into the frame.....
However, the angle of the cross would be no more than 5-10 degrees and you must also remember that the ring is on the same plane as the cross which would not make it appear to go into the frame so much.
Hold one of your KC's in front of you and tilt it to roughly the same angle as on the picture and see if it appears to go into the frame so much.
I don't think it will.......

The date is from Hueskens description so I can't vouch for it being accurate.



Brett

[Albert]

K&Q would be my guess too. Regardless from the picture, 1942 is perfectly fine for a K&Q.

[DavidM]

Hello

The date of 1942 for the award of the Knightscross to Rodenburg is correct.

Carl Rodenburg, born 17th May 1894 in Geestermuende. He joined infantry regiment 113 in 1912, staying with it throughout WW1. By the end of WW1 he was a first lieutenant.
By 1938 he was a lieutenant colonel and commander of the training staff at the infantry school in Doeberitz.
During WW2 he was the commander of infantry regiment 203 in France. At the start of 1942 he took over command of the 76 Infantry division, with the rank of major general.
On the 8th October 1942, for "his superior guidance and his personal bravery" Rodenburg was awarded the Knightscross.
On the 1st December 1942 he was promoted to lieutenant general and on 31st January 1943 he was awarded the oakleaves to his knightscross.
Rodenburg survived the war and died on the 5th November 1992 in Greven.

Regards
David

[Peter Wiking]

Brett
It is not only the doughnut ring that identify a K&Q. Look at the outline of the arms. On a K&Q they are more straight than on other crosses. The same can be seen in that photo. A K&Q in my opinion.

Peter

[Ludwig]

-

I vote for the K&Q!

[Sonderkommando]

Hmmm......
Due to the picture not being clear enough, I will agree with the consensus that it is a K&Q based on the doughnut ring and the shape of the cross itself. Also the slight glare from the silver frame might add to the apparent dipping effect.

Did all K&Q KC's have the 65 and 800 markings on the loop, or is it acceptable to find just the 800 mark on the loop?


Brett

[Pieter Verbruggen]

...the only thing we are sure of , is the cross in the picture will have NO dipping ring.
Pieter

[Albert]

...
Did all K&Q KC's have the 65 and 800 markings on the loop, or is it acceptable to find just the 800 mark on the loop?

Brett

It seems some are encountered with other markings. I once had one with a "900" marked loop; in an older Orden-Militaria-Magazin there is published the grouping of LW Hptm. Str******252;ning and his K&Q RK also has a "900" marked loop. Of course some of this might have been due to mismatching as soem RKT had two and more RKs.

It is my understanding though that it is quite possible that earlier K&Q RKs also had "800" marked loops. "Earlier" means possibly much earlier than the time frame usually associated with K&Q RKs. There is solid eveidence that they already were awarded between 1941 and 1942.

K&Q are an interestng field to research as they are certainly not as plain as most might believe. There are some interesting things about some of their tool fingerprints and also surface coatings.

Best regards,

Albert

[Sonderkommando]

Hi Albert,
Thanks for the additional info...

As this is a K&Q KC and it is seen being worn in 1942, I was thinking that if K&Q marked loops were all 65 800 marked then it places the use of the PK number to this early period.
However, since the loops were also marked 800 only then this theory doesn't really lead anywhere.

Cheers,
Brett