S&l 800/4 Rk... Interesting!!!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Should I not sell the collection, I would hope that Pieter VerBruggen and I (upon our passing) could be encased in a large lucite cube with all our collections and spend eternity 'taking it with us'.

I don't know about your collection, but Pieter might need something like they had in the Valley of Kings.....

[Dave Kane]

Dave,

The crude 935 stamp on the 935 4 St&L Knight's Cross leaves me equally dissatisfied. The numerals are not well alligned, but it is only a stamp to mark the silver content. I think we spent too much energy on some points of minutia and fail to look at the whole cross.

Bob Hritz

That could be Bob but it is the time spent on this minutia that has brought forth compelling information to positively identify fakes that for years were considered real

[Sal Williams]

Sal,

First off, I don't believe Knight's Crosses to be rare at all. I have a couple dozen and have had many more, over the years. The Junckers and Steinhauer crosses are the most common and the Zimmerman (in my opinion) is most rare. The 3/4 eye type is so rare that it has elluded me for all my years of collecting. The Otto Shickle is very rare, but has only become 'original' in the past decade. Prior to that, it was considered, by most, to be a fake. When I had one for sale, only George Peterson would agree it was authentic. It was sold for 1/3 the value of a then accepted original.

If I had to use the logic that every vet (my experience is with mostly US soldiers, and the occasional German soldier now living in the US) was lying, mistaken, or trying to fool me, I would not have anything in my collection. I have bought from thousands of US veterans over the past 40 years and have gotten to know what to ask and how to determine their history in the military.

Again, using the same logic, I would have to ask what is original, because we can only know what we have learned. If everything we have learned is flawed, then what is original? If German vets have replaced their awards, and US vets are buying post war restrikes, where are the originals?

I find it hard to explain, but when I have been doing this so long, it is pretty easy to determine who is trying to BS me and who is honest. I don't ask anyone to agree with me. My collection will be sold as a lot so it is unimportant what the current consensus believes as the buyer knows me, for many decades, and knows how and where I got the goodies. Of course, the buyer does not use the internet; he does not have to.

Should I not sell the collection, I would hope that Pieter VerBruggen and I (upon our passing) could be encased in a large lucite cube with all our collections and spend eternity 'taking it with us'.

Bob Hritz

Let me know the location of the tube so I can "liberate" a few things

Seriously, I was just wondering if you had bought from vets who had taken these RK's from prisoners directly. I was not trying to imply the vets are trying to bs you or that your experience is not valuable. Quite the contrary, I always take your opinions very seriously.

Best, Sal

[Bob Hritz]

Sal,

If you go back and search this forum for dot Junckers, you will see a group I bought from the American Lieutenant who took crosses from Karl Kennel, Kurt Lau, and an unidentified RK winner (would love to find out who he is). One of the Knight's Crosses is an A type with NON-magnetic center.

After the purchase was concluded, and we were discussing the circumstances of the surrender, he mentioned he had photos of the surrender. I asked to buy the photos and he gladly got them to me so I could have a more complete group. He did not recall which crosses were who's, but did remember the men, in the photos, whose crosses, and awards, he had.

The same day, at Kitzengen, Rudel surrendered. Too bad I didn't get his diamond awards. Rudel was considered so important a prisoner, he was allowed to keep his awards, but there was still the mention, by the American Lieutenant, that his Knight's Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds was taken by a US GI. Apparantly they were restored to Col Rudel.

Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

Dietrich,

I sure wish I could give you more information on the vet who brought back the cased 800 4 Knight's Cross. Back then, we just did not have the foresight to document all we could have. It was not until years later that I kept files with names, addresses, former units of the veterans, and notes of locations, when they remembered. So much was lost and it was only after beginning my great interest in Native American archaelogy that I decided to keep more accurate records.

I want to be cremated and with my ashes and bones buried a cell phone and a selection of stone arrowheads and stone tools. I just hope the archaelogist who finds me will be as confused as we are, over our war trinkets!!!!

Bob Hritz

[Sal Williams]

Sal,

If you go back and search this forum for dot Junckers, you will see a group I bought from the American Lieutenant who took crosses from Karl Kennel, Kurt Lau, and an unidentified RK winner (would love to find out who he is). One of the Knight's Crosses is an A type with NON-magnetic center.

After the purchase was concluded, and we were discussing the circumstances of the surrender, he mentioned he had photos of the surrender. I asked to buy the photos and he gladly got them to me so I could have a more complete group. He did not recall which crosses were who's, but did remember the men, in the photos, whose crosses, and awards, he had.

The same day, at Kitzengen, Rudel surrendered. Too bad I didn't get his diamond awards. Rudel was considered so important a prisoner, he was allowed to keep his awards, but there was still the mention, by the American Lieutenant, that his Knight's Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds was taken by a US GI. Apparantly they were restored to Col Rudel.

Bob Hritz

Looked it up. Very interesting indeed! I was wondering about any of the 935 4 and 800 4 and "b" types particularly. It would certainly be interesting if you had aquired any of those from vets who got them from captured Germans. It's all so confusing

Best Sal

[Marc Garlasco]

Bob,
What a couple you and Pieter would make - I have to tell you I split a gut when I read that. Seriously, I wish I coule visit and enjoy a glimpse into what you have. As I have said time and again your sock drawer rivals my entire hoarde!
Marc

[Bob Hritz]

Dietrich,

Having been involved in both the heavy die forging industey (Taylor Forge Division of Gulf+Western Industries) and in the die stamping industry (MecTronics electrical division) I can understand where the dent row theory is cloudy. My experience was only in the late 1960's and ended in 1971.

When making both dieforged and diestruck articles, the companies did not make just a single order. It normally took 4 to 6 times longer to do the setup than to produce a short run of stampings or forgings. The most important parts of setup were the proper cleaning of dies, allignment of dies, and the travel of the press. The latter was the most important. Undertravel leads to weak strikings or oversized forgings. Overtravel leads to broken dies, which was not so uncommon as many may think. When a die was cracked or fractured from overtravel of the press, the first remedy was to send the die to the tool and die makers to make a die block, which is a block with an exact, tight fitting hole, to hold the die and, hopefully, eliminate the need to repair the die. If the die block was perfectly fit, the old, damaged die would be tightly inserted and reused. I have seen this and was astonished that it worked so well. If that did not cure the problem, or the die was so distorted that a die block was not heplful, the die was repaired by welding and recutting. Our die makers were so good, that they could create an entire die in 2 work days, for intricate stampings. There is no alchemy or black arts involved in die makeing and cutting, just talent and patience. The new die was annealed and cut. Test strikes, using antimony, were conducted and the die was recut as needed. Then, when it has reached perfection, the die was hardened and ready for set-up instruction and fitted to the male/female die. This fitting involved alligning the guide rod holes from the existant die into the new die. In a best case scenario, usually one of the sides of the die was undamaged. I don't recall a travel setup being so poor that both male and female dies were damaged, but it could happen.

Now, after the pain of setup, most often at least double the necessary articles were made. This is to reduce wasted time for setup, when additional orders were anticipated. The secondary reason is that when there is an additional order, the pieces are exact in shape, fit, and finish, should complete products be just the stamping. If multiple reorders are anticipated, a larger run would be produced.

Now for the other important part. I was a cost accountant and understand both inventory management and accounting prinicples. When warehousing, the most common method of storeage is LIFO (last in first out). This is because non-perishables are just fine on the shelf and it is time (COST) efficient to grab the last and easiest to reach article on the shelf or bin. Also, LIFO is the most accurate method of knowing actual cost of today's production. An inventory system would determine what the cost was of 500 pieces, made over a period of fluctuating raw material costs.

The use of the LIFO inventory system was more convenient, but when shelves are emptied, for inventory or cleaning (done quarterly at MecTronics and annually at Taylor Forge), the parts may not be replaced in the exact order as removed. It would be unnecessary to keep them all straight, unless there was some strict reason such as a perishable good. All that was necessary was to ensure that the articles were undamaged, neat, clean, and easy to reach.

I would love to see the inside of the various St&L Knight's Cross frames to determine if the male die was consistant from A to B types. I know I am not having my Knight's Crosses disassembled and cannot imagine anyone else doing so.

The time line is determined by when items are stamped but more importantly, when those stamped articles were shipped, either alone or as a part of a completed article.

Now , my most sincere apologies for boring you all to distraction, but I have a package to mail to Dietrich.

Bob Hritz

[Robin Lumsden]

I want to be cremated and with my ashes and bones buried a cell phone and a selection of stone arrowheads and stone tools. I just hope the archaelogist who finds me will be as confused as we are, over our war trinkets!!!!

The archaeologist will just think you were a time traveller, Bob. Ever heard of 'Dr. Who'?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Bob,

make it a big one...

I fully agree with you on the set-up procedure and all. Also on the economics of it, i.e. set-up time (unproductive) to stamp time (productive). From that on we all speculate. Did they stock frames or finished crosses? Did they use FIFO or FILO?

I would think the only other certain thing is that they run 'material batches', i.e. 800 silver and then 935 silver. Put those frames in separate containers/shelfs.

Now, if the 800-4 is basically a parallel model to the 935-4, the 'soft silver' is out (I never believed that anyway)

We might never know. I think we can be happy already that we know about the A and B type which at least made the flawed A-type (as found from veterans and recipients) now a undoubtfully good piece! And gave us at least a little bit of a time line...

Dietrich

[Bob Hritz]

Dietrich,

I may never get to FedEx, at this rate, but it will be a big one!

I am really interested in the study of core details. I think it is time to do a close study from what we know are certainly A type frames and those cores, to the later, B type frames and those cores. Have you bee doing a detailed study on the cores also?

I have to agree with you as I have had and seen a number of undoubtedly original heavily flawed A types. Just this fall, a collector, in Illinois, got a heavily flawed A type from a vet. It was sold at the SOS and I never got to see it. Perhaps Jason Burmeister took a photo, as I know he had the opportunity to examine the cross. The knowledge that you provided on the frame types is a giant leap in our learning and I hope the core studies will provide much more for us to contemplate.

Bob Hritz

[DavidM]

Hello

This has been an excellent and informative discussion. Thank you to all who have helped make it so good.

Would it be reasonable of me to assume from all this that the magnetic cored 800/4 and 935/4, together with the A types, (magentic and none magnetic) are now considered to be ok and of wartime production / origin ?

Regards
David

[ChrisJ]

Never say Die

Thanks to Bob for some great information....(invaluable insights)

I think that we need to seriously consider what could be the cause of the dent row. A wonderfully reworked female die has a pass of weld left on the lower 3 o'clock arm (?)....or due to a feature on the male (?)

Any light you can shed further on this Bob (?)

[Dietrich Maerz]

It's not only the dent row that defines the B-Type. It's also the 6-9 o'clock knee flaw which can sometimes bee seen even better on pictures. That cannot come from a male die...

[Brian S]

Dietrich, Dave K., and Brian S.;

What is your take on Detlev Niemann's opinion of the 800 4 St&L Knight's Crosses? Obviously, I agree with Herr Niemann, but am always interested in healthy exchange of information.

Bob Hritz

ps: I would love to have a straight 935 St&L Knight's Cross for study. However, I don't believe they are wartime produced, when compared with known wartime examples.

If Detlev has found them from vets than he has found them from vets, end of story.

The dent row is NOT an indication of assembly, it's an indication of frame stamping. So entirely irrelevant.

I do have the same problem that Dave has with some of the crosses. I do not doubt Detlev's comments but would suggest the die was used postwar with wierd stamps.

As Dave and I have always agreed on is the fit and finish of the S&L has always been the defining determination of war/postwar. We differ now on the dent row on a well finished cross, I think we disagree, but so be it.

I think you are entirely honest and I highly respect your experiences over the years buying from vets.