S&l 800/4 Rk... Interesting!!!

[km-spain]

I am an owner of an '935' and I personally believe that it is postwar however, it would be awesome if it was found to be wartime issue. That would really be cool. Nevertheless, we need the truth! Here is a dumb question, why hasn't anyone asked S&L?

Stephen, I really don't know if it's pre or post may 1945. I would like to know why for you and other people like Dietrich are postwar for sure.

I have a life time originality guarante, so no problem.

[VIPER]

Dear Dietrich,

No, I'm 100% sure that the "935 4" S&L's with magnetic cores are war period. I had several, some in groups, other singles.
I have no problems with them, never had.Beside that they are pretty scarce.

BUT there are (from my point of view) post war S'L's with silver content marks "935".

regards
detlev

I have emailed Detlev, hopefully he will clairify his comment and if possible give some award dates as well.............Jimmy

[Detlev Niemann]

Hello,

you grabbed me when I was nearly out of my office.
Too dark to play golf, so I can also write some comments.
I have archivated most of the KC's I had over the last 25 years. I must have hundreds of S&L's in my files.
So, my personal conclusions derive from my experience and my archiv and from the KC you actually have in your hand to judge details, quality...

I see the S&L in general to be a very common KC.
But there is no other company that used so many different stamps,silver content marks like S&L.
Why ?
I have no explanation other than they did it.

But, by percentage following markings are rare or very rare:

- "800" on frame = common, like 95 out of 100
- "935 4" on frame = rare , maybe 4-5 out of 100
- "800 4" on frame = very rare, maybe 1 out of 100

Period of award (that I have noticed):

- both "935 4" and "800 4" are mid-late 1944 to 1945. Have note seen one earlier than June 1944. (By now)

Both very good quality and far from the post 1945 copies.
Early 1957 KC's by S&L also show up with "935" silver markings.

Post war:

The best quality "post war S&L" KC's are the nonmagnetic core KC's with still silver frame.
I have not seen by now any really convincing post war (magnetic, silver content marked) S&L KC's.

Got to leave now...
regards
detlev

[VIPER]

Thanks Detlev......Sorry to grab you as you were headed out but hopefully this sheds some light on the 800/4 and 935/4s..............Jimmy

[Stephen Stout]

I personally would like to know more about the '935' considering this is a good discussion.

[VIPER]

I personally would like to know more about the '935' considering this is a good discussion.

Yes this has been a very good discussion. I believe it was Dave Kane who threw this Steak into the pack of wild dogs . I am not as familiar with the 935 only crosses but am under the impression that if the have a non iron core and are " B-Types", they are very suspect. I would quess they were made some time after 1945-1957 and maybe even later. Anyone else have any more ideas.......Regards Jimmy

[km-spain]

Yes this has been a very good discussion. I believe it was Dave Kane who threw this Steak into the pack of wild dogs . I am not as familiar with the 935 only crosses but am under the impression that if the have a non iron core and are " B-Types", they are very suspect. I would quess they were made some time after 1945-1957 and maybe even later. Anyone else have any more ideas.......Regards Jimmy

Everybody says, "935" + nonmagnetic core = post war (after 1945-1957 and maybe even later), BUT WHY????, I really would like to undertand why are you so sure of this.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I don't know about everybody, but here's my take. And I can only speak for me and me alone!!!

- it's a B-Type, therefore late
- it has a non-regulation brass core
- it has a very weak dent row
- it has a sloppy finish
- it has no provenance at all
- no maker mark

[Bob Hritz]

Dietrich, Dave K., and Brian S.;

What is your take on Detlev Niemann's opinion of the 800 4 St&L Knight's Crosses? Obviously, I agree with Herr Niemann, but am always interested in healthy exchange of information.

Bob Hritz

ps: I would love to have a straight 935 St&L Knight's Cross for study. However, I don't believe they are wartime produced, when compared with known wartime examples.

[Sal Williams]

Hi Bob,
can you share moredetails of the crosses in question that you got from vets? Where they got them (off capturedsoldiers or from the german vets directly after the war etc.)

If Detlev has, or has had, attributed pieces it would be great to know the details as so far there are no known attributed pieces as far as I know.

My line of thought is this: Provenance always seems like a sketchy thing (after all it is a "story" unless backed with photos no?) and I would well imagine a German vet who had his RK taken by a GI and had it replaced soon after the war ended (by the suppliers whos order forms Dietrich and others have shown) would not see this as a "fake". It would be thier RK. At the time I an not imagine that the strike date would seem important. Or even be known for that matter, they would just want thier RK. So an occupying force GI who got one from such a vet would have "provenance" or at least a good reason to believe it genuine and it could even come with original docs which would have remained at the vets house. To both the vet and GI this would be an original cross no duplicity intended.

Best, Sal

[km-spain]

I don't know about everybody, but here's my take. And I can only speak for me and me alone!!!

- it's a B-Type, therefore late
- it has a non-regulation brass core
- it has a very weak dent row
- it has a sloppy finish
- it has no provenance at all
- no maker mark

Thanks Dietrich.

[Dave Kane]

Bob, I was fortunate enough to have had opportunity to study in hand an 800/4, many thanks to EricN!!

I studied the Cross and when finished I studied it again!! I even used 30x.
The form, fit and finish were excellent. The Cross had many points on the positive side.

However, I had a great deal of trouble getting beyond the pock marks (dent row). The lack of depth, definition etc. compared to a 935/4 was dramatic. The style and crudness of the 800 mark confounded me. All and all as I told EricN I found myself in an unusual position of 'fence sitting' a very atypical position for me!

My 'heart' said possibly but the 'brain' suggested otherwise.

Regarding Detlev's observations and while I respect his opinion and scholar gained in the 25 years of handling this stuff.....there is still the 36 years of ????????? between war's end and his initial exposure. That's why there's so much 'fodder' for discussion!!!

[Bob Hritz]

Sal,

First off, I don't believe Knight's Crosses to be rare at all. I have a couple dozen and have had many more, over the years. The Junckers and Steinhauer crosses are the most common and the Zimmerman (in my opinion) is most rare. The 3/4 eye type is so rare that it has elluded me for all my years of collecting. The Otto Shickle is very rare, but has only become 'original' in the past decade. Prior to that, it was considered, by most, to be a fake. When I had one for sale, only George Peterson would agree it was authentic. It was sold for 1/3 the value of a then accepted original.

If I had to use the logic that every vet (my experience is with mostly US soldiers, and the occasional German soldier now living in the US) was lying, mistaken, or trying to fool me, I would not have anything in my collection. I have bought from thousands of US veterans over the past 40 years and have gotten to know what to ask and how to determine their history in the military.

Again, using the same logic, I would have to ask what is original, because we can only know what we have learned. If everything we have learned is flawed, then what is original? If German vets have replaced their awards, and US vets are buying post war restrikes, where are the originals?

I find it hard to explain, but when I have been doing this so long, it is pretty easy to determine who is trying to BS me and who is honest. I don't ask anyone to agree with me. My collection will be sold as a lot so it is unimportant what the current consensus believes as the buyer knows me, for many decades, and knows how and where I got the goodies. Of course, the buyer does not use the internet; he does not have to.

Should I not sell the collection, I would hope that Pieter VerBruggen and I (upon our passing) could be encased in a large lucite cube with all our collections and spend eternity 'taking it with us'.

Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

Dave,

The crude 935 stamp on the 935 4 St&L Knight's Cross leaves me equally dissatisfied. The numerals are not well alligned, but it is only a stamp to mark the silver content. I think we spent too much energy on some points of minutia and fail to look at the whole cross.

Bob Hritz

[Dietrich Maerz]

What is your take on Detlev Niemann's opinion of the 800 4 St&L Knight's Crosses? Obviously, I agree with Herr Niemann, but am always interested in healthy exchange of information.

Bob,

as I alreeady said earlier : I have no reason to doubt your word! More details - if available - about the vet's time in Germany (when did he leave) could only bolster the case.

I also have no doubts about what Detlev said. If he got 800-4's from original recipients and/or the family, as he says, the case is settled.

However, this leaves me with the same puzzle Dave has: the dent row. I too had the cross from Eric and was astonished about the weakness of the row. Not as weak as the 925 and others, but a lot weaker than the 935-4. Manufacturing quality is very good. The '800' stamp is another strange thing!!! Why???

I'm looking forward checking your 800-4! Since it's mint, all discussion about wear is out of the window up front. It should give a very good representation of the state of initial production.

By the way, this is a marvellous discussion and we are really blessed that we have so many participants and different view points! 135 posts and over 2000 views!