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**Bob Hritz** · 11-19-2006, 02:51 PM

For all those who emailed me and PMd me, the mint, cased 800 4 Knight's Cross is NOT for sale or trade.

Bob Hritz

**VIPER** · 11-19-2006, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

Listen to a few of the people who have been around for a long time, a LONG time. They don't easily put their faith in junk.

This is about believing a neat little 'engineering' approach to a situation nothing more complex then, "hey, Max, go to the pile and pull me 50 frames for assembly." Not, "hey Max, go to the pile and pull the first 50 frames minted yesterday out of the 800 in the pile." "You know, Max, they will be scrutinizing these later, and we have to be careful."

Brian does bring up an interesting point regarding manufacturing of frame vs assembly of complete crosses............1st ones stamped may be the last ones assembled, thus putting 800/4s assembly ahead of the 935/4. We may be talking of mere hours or days between the stamping of the first 935/4s, stamping of 800/4s, assembly of 800/4s (lying on top of their pile), assembly of 935/4s. Thus preserving the "timeline" of the "dent row"while accounting for the anamoly of at least some of these B-Types...........Jimmy

**VIPER** · 11-19-2006, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

For all those who emailed me and PMd me, the mint, cased 800 4 Knight's Cross is NOT for sale or trade.

Bob Hritz

Strange I had similar PMs in my box regarding my minty 800/4. Right much demand for a post war cross.

**Bob Hritz** · 11-19-2006, 03:54 PM

Dietrich,

You have seen a sc A type St&L Knight's Cross without an iron center. Here is the link: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=dot+juncker

This is another of my vet purchases, along with the 800 dot juncker with L/50 Oak Leaves, a converted 2nd Class to RK, and the other medals and badges of Karl Kennel, Kurt Lau and an unidentified RK winner.

Whether anyone believes this or not is unimportant to me. I have such a huge offer, on my Knight's Crosses, they will all be sold to one collector, when the time comes, who KNOWS Knight's Crosses.

Bob Hritz

**Dietrich Maerz** · 11-19-2006, 04:10 PM

Hi Bob,

thanks for reminding me! I forgot about that one, but - since you know my MO, with 'not seen' I meant physically in my hand. Maybe it will happen....

Dietrich

**Bob Hritz** · 11-19-2006, 04:15 PM

Dietrich,

I believe you will!

Bob Hritz

**Dietrich Maerz** · 11-19-2006, 04:23 PM

Now I really have to make a remark in general!

I butt heads with Bob Hritz about this subject, I'm known to be very sceptical about the 800-4 and even more so about the 935...

BUT

- when I asked ErickN to send me his 800-4 - even warning him that I might 'use' it to prove that they are post war - he did send it to me w/o any strings attached!!!

- when I contacte Bob Hritz two days ago with the same request and 'warning' his answer was "how many more crosses do you need" and "you will have a boxload full of crosses coming your way". No strings attached!

- the same thing with Maj. Konig and his "935" !!!

- when I asked Dave Kane to send me his 800 S&L for another scan, I had it the next day!

- and there are others that want to stay unnamed!!

Isn't that beautiful and in the spirit of the hobby?

I have no intention to bad mouth anything or anybody. I'm just collecting data and I honestly truly try to present them as unbiased as possible. And I appreciate the trust put in me to do so.

Dietrich

**Marc Garlasco** · 11-19-2006, 04:30 PM

group Hug!!!

**VIPER** · 11-19-2006, 04:34 PM

PZK Numbers

Regarding use of the Prasidialkanzlei number, in his book on pg 191 Gordon states that in 1942 that the firm of Paul Meybauer was warned by the Prasidialkanzlei that they were not an authorized manufacturer of the German cross and were to desist from using their number on pieces manfactured in conjunction with Deschler. Does this not mean that the numbers were in use or optional use earlier than the oft quoted middle of 1944 for the date of institution............Jimmy

**Dietrich Maerz** · 11-19-2006, 05:10 PM

He also says on page 46:

"From 1944 onwards, all awards supplied to the Praesidialkanzlei were to carry the official Lieferant number"

and I have two quotes form the letter you mention (dated 24th of May 1942) in the German literature. Both do not mention the use of a wrong number but rather the prohibition of manufacturing the DK.

**Stephen Stout** · 11-19-2006, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

And a worn ribbon which would indicate that this cross was awarded and worn by somebody. This would put the 800-4 squarely in front of the 935-4, based on what is known so far and today.

Based on what I could tell so far by looking at (2) 800-4 in detail and in person I personally will not believe that the 800-4 was struck before the 935-4.

I think it is away to rip of customers thinking that the 800-4 is wartime because heck I could fit a worn ribbon on my '935' and call it wartime. I think it is away to fool people and think about the gray area with S&L RKs.

**VIPER** · 11-19-2006, 05:31 PM

It just seems logical too me that the number was optional prior too May of 1944 afterwhich it was then mandated. How else dies one account for the huge amount of pieces bearing the numbers. Surely not all were made during the last year of the war. And it was not even a full year until these production facilites were occupied. That is all I am saying. OK I know the answer, they never stoped manufacturing but kept on through May of 45 right too the present day....

**Dietrich Maerz** · 11-19-2006, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by VIPER View Post

How else dies one account for the huge amount of pieces bearing the numbers.

Did you know that 50% of all RK's have been awarded after January 1944? And 50% of all Oakleaves after April 44?

**VIPER** · 11-19-2006, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

Now that's streching it! The first die took 5 years to collapse, the same repaired one went down in days!

So in those few days S&L cramped out all the frames to do the 935-4, 800-4, 800, incuse 800, 935, early 57 and very late unmagnetic, non silver flawed ones.

Well, I guess that did leave them enough time after all for those 935/4s and 800/4s and maybe one or two other of those pesky B types.......

**Dietrich Maerz** · 11-19-2006, 05:49 PM

Jimmy,

if you read my answer carefully you will notice that it was in response to Brian's remark that the die collapsed in several days or a week.

I certainly don't believe that - and evidently neither do you!

Announcement

S&l 800/4 Rk... Interesting!!!

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