SS small KC grouping

[byterock]

What else could he do with it but sell it!

Is there a Museum in Germany that would take it?

Even if they did would it ever see the light of day?

A least the son knows it will go to some-one who will appreciate his father's sacrifice.

cheers

[all1knew]

What else could he do with it but sell it!

Is there a Museum in Germany that would take it?

Even if they did would it ever see the light of day?

A least the son knows it will go to some-one who will appreciate his father's sacrifice.

cheers

Hello,

An excellent point, somebody will appreciate the grouping, maybe more than the son could have. There are several museums in Germany that would have gladly taken it and displayed the lot, but a personal collection will display in a sense as well.

William Kramer

[Ludwig]

-

I have noticed that all posthumous awarded KCs were K&Q-made. At least all I know of. Or if a KC was sent home to the fallen soldier´s family and the original KC was lost. Always a Klein und Quemzer.
Nice grouping by the way, André.

[ChrisJ]

Gefallen

I have noticed that all posthumous awarded KCs were K&Q-made. At least all I know of. Or if a KC was sent home to the fallen soldier´s family and the original KC was lost. Always a Klein und Quemzer.
Nice grouping by the way, André.

Hi Ludwig,
I had an RK postumously awarded to Oberfeldwebel Meier (Schlachtgeschwader pilot)...it was a Junckers 800/dot.

Regards
Chris

[Dietrich Maerz]

@ Ludwig: I saw that pattern also. Of course, it can only work later in the war.

@ Chris: That's interesting! There was the thesis put out by an expert in the field of RK's that 800 dot's were given out to people who later got the oaks or higher. Something that the 'dot' is denominating a better quality or bigger ring opening or so. There was -IMHO- a minor deficiency: how could the PKZ know who would become an oaks or sword winner later. But that didn't really dawn on the expert.
Now, this postumous awarded cross might bring the theory down.

and I quote from his thesis (added for clarification 8:55 pm):

"Interestingly, it seems as though these "dot" pieces are usually found with oaks or oaks/swords. This is of course before some have been split out. I wonder if the dot designation was intended for those crosses specifically awarded with oaks or oaks and swords with the new additional award? Any thoughts? It is interesting to note that the most recent "dot" piece posted by Kevin (warfight) is without a loop, suggesting that perhaps the piece was associated with oaks/ oaks and swords at one time in its past."

and

1. rarity of "dots" about coincide with rarity of oaks/swords

2. the issue of "fit" of the oaks/oaks and swords attachment. I can see the K&Q, but I would think that S&L would fit as well. The use of the dot to mark those pieces to be used for oaks/ oaks and swords is an interesting thought. I guess they probably would have tried it out first, as it would have been embarrassing if they did not fit together after they had been awarded.

3. availability- juncker and S&L appear to be the most numerous RKs. Yet there appears to be no S&L RKs with oaks/ oaks and swords that we are aware of. Why no S&Ls? There should have been quite a few available in germany."

[StefanK.]

i inspected a Ritterkreuz last week that was also awarded posthumeosly. It was a L/12 800.

regards,
stefan

[Robin Lumsden]

I have noticed that all posthumous awarded KCs were K&Q-made. At least all I know of. Or if a KC was sent home to the fallen soldier´s family and the original KC was lost. Always a Klein und Quemzer.

Ludwig.
You have a good eye.
I have noticed over the years that the vast majority of late war issued RKs were K&Q. Not all, but certainly most. You just have to look at the pix of late war awardees. I'm not aware of anyone else picking this up.

[Stephen Stout]

May we have some images of the grouping in detail.

[markus]

Ritterkreuz

Hm, interesting KC details, but can nobody tell me/us why Schoenberger got the KC? What other decorations did he receive?

Hope everyone agrees that the group is about the man... What good is a KC without knowing what it was actually for?

Does anyone have the personnel file of Schoenberger?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hi Ludwig,
I had an RK postumously awarded to Oberfeldwebel Meier (Schlachtgeschwader pilot)...it was a Junckers 800/dot.

Was it Johann-Hermann Meier, 16. Dec. 44 ??

[Kevin V.]

It is interesting to note that the most recent "dot" piece posted by Kevin (warfight) is without a loop, suggesting that perhaps the piece was associated with oaks/ oaks and swords at one time in its past."

Hi Dietrich I wanted to share that the piece you are talking about originally had L/50 marked O&S!!!! The O&S are now in a private collection in Belgium!!! I aslo see the pattern that many of the dot pieces I know of have O&S attached, but other examples that come straight from the recipiant or the family have other Juncker variants attached!!!!

Sincerely

[Dietrich Maerz]

Kevin,

why don't you list the many O&S examples with 800 dot? And the oaks also! To make it statistically relevant, I think a third of all would make one think about a pattern! So somebody needs to come up with approx. 340 '800 dot' with oaks or swords!!!! One or two will not do.

[ChrisJ]

Hamburger Schlachtflieger

Was it Johann-Hermann Meier, 16. Dec. 44 ??

Hi D.

No...

If you remember some years ago I asked you to translate the letter from his CO forwarding the RK to his family. ...(well, it was a long time ago !).

I have a newspaper cutting in my files dated "Berlin 22 Juli" titled "Hamburger Schlachtflieger". The article confirmed "Der Fuhrer verlich das Ritterkreuz des Eiseernen Kreruzes an Oberfeldwebel Otto Meier.".. I also have a photo of Meier set against a JU87.

Ref other theories regarding the "dot".....statistically, for someone to have been awarded the swords in (say) 1944 then they would have been awarded the Oaks in maybe 1943 and the RK ins (say) 1942....not unreasonable to expect a 800/dot really.

I have owned two stone solid K&Q RK's with Oakleaves.....the only trend I'd comment is that often 1945 pieces at S&L with only the first flaw on the 3 o'clock arm (7th/8th bead) but only on one side (either obverse or reverse).

All thge best my friend
C

[Kevin V.]

Kevin,

why don't you list the many O&S examples with 800 dot? And the oaks also! To make it statistically relevant, I think a third of all would make one think about a pattern! So somebody needs to come up with approx. 340 '800 dot' with oaks or swords!!!! One or two will not do.

If you read my posting carefully I am just saying that the one I had also had O&S swords attached!!!! The one sold by DN a couple of months ago also had O&S!!! The one published in GW book also had O&S attached!!!! The dot piece that was sold by Bill Shea also had originally O&S attached!!!!
I am not saying that all O&S recipiants had a Juncker dot but many recipiants have an early Juncker cross and an unmarked Juncker, 800, 800 dot IMHO are early issues!!!!
Sincerely

[Dietrich Maerz]

Ref other theories regarding the "dot".....statistically, for someone to have been awarded the swords in (say) 1944 then they would have been awarded the Oaks in maybe 1943 and the RK ins (say) 1942....not unreasonable to expect a 800/dot really.

Of course is that statistically possible! However, the theory alledges that " it seems as though these "dot" pieces are usually found with oaks or oaks/swords" which is inclusive and that "Yet there appears to be no S&L RKs with oaks/ oaks and swords that we are aware of." which is exclusive. And wrong. I'm aware of some.

And no, I did not remember the letter....sorry

regards,

Dietrich