Non-magnetic Cholm shield opinion

[Stive]

The results are;

- Wartime original Width 39.60mm Length 64.95mm
- Shield in thread Width 38.60mm Length 64.30mm

Kr
Pascal

Pascal thanks for your data. But I believe that measuring the Cholm shields by different people, using different instruments, does not always produce the same result.
Here 's a measurement of the Cholm shield from the Russian military museum. The measurement was carried out by an electronic measuring instrument:
Size 40.02 mm X 65.04 mm.
Weight in full collection 23.51 g.

[Pascal H.]

Pascal thanks for your data. But I believe that measuring the Cholm shields by different people, using different instruments, does not always produce the same result.
Here 's a measurement of the Cholm shield from the Russian military museum. The measurement was carried out by an electronic measuring instrument:
Size 40.02 mm X 65.04 mm.
Weight in full collection 23.51 g.

Thanks Stive.
My measurements are from an original shield from my own collection and also carried out by an electronic instrument. As you said measurements by different people can produce small differences.
In any case the shield in this thread is not bigger as the shield in my collection or as the shield in the Russian museum.

Kr
Pascal

[Pascal H.]

Although this shield is exactly the same as the known magnetic original, some of the small die flaws are missing from this shield. For me it is therefore hard to believe that this shield was produced post war with the original dies. If this was the case these die flaws should be clearly visible on this shield (which they aren’t).

So lets recap what else we found out about this shield;
- the shield is exactly the same as the know magnetic original
- the shield has as good as the exact same dimensions as the known original
- the shield is made of Cupal
- no other shields of this type are known

Taking all the above fact into consideration I would say that there is still a good possibility that this shield is indeed a wartime produced shield.

Could it be that this shield WAS produced with the original dies before these die flaws developed? Maybe this shield was a trial/prototype as Stive suggested or maybe an early production shield of maybe even an manufacturer example?

Kr
Pascal

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Pascal,

Nice to confirm its Cupal, for me that is a good sign and something hard to fake because it cannot be die cast like so many fakes are.

The only thing that still gives me pause is that we know Staegmeir has been making fake Cholm shields from Cupal for years, which we have already discussed in previous threads and one was posted in this thread. Although the one you found is different than these older Staegemeir fakes, perhaps this is the latest attempt at a fake Cholm.

Tom

[Pascal H.]

Hi Pascal,

Nice to confirm its Cupal, for me that is a good sign and something hard to fake because it cannot be die cast like so many fakes are.

The only thing that still gives me pause is that we know Staegmeir has been making fake Cholm shields from Cupal for years, which we have already discussed in previous threads and one was posted in this thread. Although the one you found is different than these older Staegemeir fakes, perhaps this is the latest attempt at a fake Cholm.

Tom

Hi Tom,

Yes, I am familiar with the Staegemeir fakes. In fact I have a couple in my collection (as fakes ). I can assure you this shield is nothing like it. This shield comes from a very respectable collector who had this shield for years in his collection.

Kr
Pascal

[Jeff V]

What gives me pause is the modern glue on the cloth and handmade backplate. To ignore these obvious clues is a mistake IMO.

[Pascal H.]

What gives me pause is the modern glue on the cloth and handmade backplate. To ignore these obvious clues is a mistake IMO.

Thanks Jeff but I’m thinking quite the opposite. Early shields, prototypes, manufacturers example were not produced with any backing. It was only later on when it was obvious that a shield with a backing was fetching more money that backings were attached.
With the Internet, collectors are quite aware what to look for when it comes to the backing of a shield. This is for me also an indication that this backing was attached a long time ago.

Kr
Pascal

[Jeff V]

Hi Pascal, of course that scenario is possible. For me, the idea that a never before seen piece appears with a postwar backing and cloth lends more credence to a fake than a previously unknown manufacturer sample or pre production piece, especially since the dimensions are smaller that a textbook magnetic piece. I hope that I am wrong and would love for you to have an original.
best wishes,
jeff

[Zheleznyi]

Hi Pascal, of course that scenario is possible. For me, the idea that a never before seen piece appears with a postwar backing and cloth lends more credence to a fake than a previously unknown manufacturer sample or pre production piece, especially since the dimensions are smaller that a textbook magnetic piece. I hope that I am wrong and would love for you to have an original.
best wishes,
jeff

Complete agreement

[Pascal H.]

Hi Pascal, of course that scenario is possible. For me, the idea that a never before seen piece appears with a postwar backing and cloth lends more credence to a fake than a previously unknown manufacturer sample or pre production piece, especially since the dimensions are smaller that a textbook magnetic piece. I hope that I am wrong and would love for you to have an original.
best wishes,
jeff

Hi Jeff, when I started this thread I was convinced that the shield was a fake. This is what I also wrote to the seller after I received, examined and bought the shield. Thanks to this this thread, the opinion of our members and close examination I am now not so sure anymore that this shield is a fake.
There will always be some skepticism when showing unique examples. I am well aware of that as this also happened with the thread of the Narvik prototype/example from Juncker. I always believed in these shields and I am glad that I could also add these shields to my collection. To me these shields are 100% original.

So many shields were added with postwar backing plates and cloth. If that would be the standard on how to determine the authenticity then (I’m afraid) not many original shields would be left.

This shield will be added to my collection and I have no intention in selling this shield. At this moment this shield will always be a reason for discussion but for me there are no reasons to say that this shield is definitely a fake (or original for that matter). To me this is reason enough to keep on researching into this type of shield.

Kr
Pascal

[Jeff V]

Hi Pascal, no problem. Hopefully further research will clarify the issue one way or another.
best wishes,
jeff

[Zheleznyi]

I don't see any arguments to recognize the original shield. I agree with Yuri, the dimensions may differ, but this applies, as a rule, to the width, the height is almost always the same. I measured two shields: the height of 64.97 mm. The discussed shield is smaller. I hope everyone knows that this happens on fake? Let's answer the questions:
1. All details of the shield are original? - No.
2. All defects of the original stamp are present on it? - No.
3. Are there fakes close to the original from kupal? - Yeah.
Talking about "manual work" in a field workshop is a fantasy and a desire to give wishful thinking. This topic needs to be pinned and if the same ones start appearing within a few years, this can only mean one thing: this shield is a fake, and this is the first edition.

[no1canuck]

This topic needs to be pinned and if the same ones start appearing within a few years, this can only mean one thing: this shield is a fake, and this is the first edition.

That is fair enough, but if they dont start appearing what would that prove? Would someone make a die to produce one piece? If that is the case please find him as he would be a great asset to my shop, as I really like the quality of his work and his readiness to work for such small gain.

Steve

[Zheleznyi]

That is fair enough, but if they dont start appearing what would that prove? Would someone make a die to produce one piece? If that is the case please find him as he would be a great asset to my shop, as I really like the quality of his work and his readiness to work for such small gain.

Steve

Only time will tell.