New Shields!

[heinrich66]

Hello,
Stijn, I'm with you with the last2 posts.
Originals are hard to find- and orginals will be always recognized by the collecting community....

[Tim B.]

I don't own a Cholm shield--yet, so I can't/won't comment on the shields in this thread. However, I have looked at several over the years and can honestly say that originals are far from common and certainly not cheap. Most of them exceed the price of most buntmetal badges and there are an abundance of fakes that continually get better as time goes on.

I will say that this quote "The money will tell you what is good and what is bad." bothers me quite a bit and I think this sums up the general attitude of a lot of sellers these days. If I can get someone to buy an item that has certain traits, then it becomes real over time in the collecting market. If this wasn't true, then how could these sellers that contiually bring reproductions to the dealer tables get away with showing and selling these obvious fake items as originals?

It's sad, but a fact of life and it's all about making money, nothing else. It's not a hobby or about collecting to these people, it's a business; cut and dried!
Tim

[pantherv]

Hello,
Stijn, I'm with you with the last2 posts.
Originals are hard to find- and orginals will be always recognized by the collecting community....

I absolutely agree with heinreich on this......I trawled the forum for early threads on the Cholmshield and this discussion/disagreement has been going on for years....Stijn is spot on when he says ' study and study again' and don't rely on the sellers.

My personal experience of dealers is that they fall into 3 catagories. They either haven't got the knowledge.....they knowingly sell fakes as the genuine thing.......the third are the decent dealers who know what there looking at and only sell the genuine item.

[pantherv]

I will say that this quote "The money will tell you what is good and what is bad." bothers me quite a bit and I think this sums up the general attitude of a lot of sellers these days. If I can get someone to buy an item that has certain traits, then it becomes real over time in the collecting market. If this wasn't true, then how could these sellers that contiually bring reproductions to the dealer tables get away with showing and selling these obvious fake items as originals?


Yes Tim......this quote bothered me as well but I noticed on the very early threads......shields being $400....now there fetching $1500+ within a few years...maybe that's why.

[Bob Hritz]

Well friends, I did not post this to raise your ire. We disagree as do many knowledgeable collectors, over many items we collect.

I just will not believe that veterans were all duped when they took war trophies in 1944 and 1945. There has never been posted photos of Cupal Cholms, on this forum before.

As for my comment on the money counts; I stand by that. Originals sell and fakes do not, for the real price. I see the fakes and they are always offered or sold at prices far below the authentic. That is when money counts.

I have no axe to grind. I am not a dealer. I have buyers, standing in line, for my collection, whenever I decide to sell it as a lot. There is no animosity and I respect your right to disagree. Hwever, I feel you are wrong and you feel I am wrong. I am glad that so many have the confidence to declare they know it all. I am lways impressed by the infallible.

My offer stands to buy any and all of the types I posted for the price of reproductions. My mailbox is still empty.......

Bob Hritz

[Stijn David]

cholmshield

Hello,


I think that common sense will always be the only way to go, following the moneyflow has nothing to do with collecting. All these items have a marketvalue when original and that market is the result of offer and demand.

The only reason that original Cholmshields are expensive these days is that serious collectors (and dealers of whom many depend on to help them to aquire our beloved pieces) have become aware of that originals have always been rare. The demand to own a original one is much greater then the offer at this point. In that way there is no real price, it is something that evoluates and no holy grale.

With 5.500 shields awarded (of wich lets say 1/3 was already posthumously) it was also a rare honour back at the end of 1942. Howmany of the soldiers that did receive the cholmshield would have een still alive when the war was over do you think?

I think if 1/3 did survive the war and then yet they where not all centered in the wartheatre where the US was involved (western europe).

So iff we do take these facts into account, what was the chance that US veterans did encounter a few of the Cholmveterans with this famous shield on the arm?

I can assure you that one (as US or Britisch soldier lets say) did had muc more chance to encounter a Knight cross holder. Simple interpretation of numbers awarded and study of the units, theathers of war can clearely show this already.

As a example the glider pilots can be shown, approx. 100 glider crew members (either glider pilots or bord mechanics) where inside Cholm at some stage of the battle. Over 25 % was killed or so heavely wounded that they did die shortly afterwards still during the battle.

Then we still have 75 % left, Another 35 % was killed before the war ended. That brings us up towards 40 % survivors, and guess howmany ended up in Sovject captivity? It is safe to say that over 25 % ended up there (Sovjet captivity) and a Cholmshield on your arm would certainly not be a bonus to survive. So these things (awards in general) where simply removed and thrown away iff the soldier had the chance. A few questions with no easy answers (iff there are any) but that have the goal to let people think.

Therefore iff one would be realistic then it is more then normal that between the so called liberated (or do we need to say collected?) goodies from US veterans there would not be that many original cholmshields for sure. Anyone who does believe otherways is not realistic and simply believes in story's.

So be realistic and do not let anyone make your head spin with a rather strange slogans such as money will show wich items are original. Anyone who does call himself a collector with such attitude does not collect because he loves the history, thats an investor that wil come one day towards the conclusion that his items are not what he tought they where.

Money will probably bring you a nice collection, but it will not bring you knowledge or common sense. Neither does hollow statements such as offers to buy all shields and empty mailboxes etc ... bring any value towards discussions as this.

Anyone that is realistic will come towards the conclusion that possesing a original (Cholm) shield / award document etc ... will become real hard and probably out of his reach. Thats the way it has become today. therefore accept this fact and do your homework.

Cordial greetings + happy collecting.

[panzerlord1]

pascal

Interesting thread i am in no way a shield collector but it looks like a bigger
mine field than helmet decals!!! It would be interesting to hear Pascals call!! on zinc cholms Bob does't like them Pascal does



Panzerlord

[heinrich66]

Hi,

real zinc shields exists for sure- i know personally 2 estates with zinc shield (both from Luftwaffen soldiers)

[Stijn David]

types of Cholmshields

Hello,


Indeed original Zinkshields do exist, the following materials can be encountered when talking about Cholmshields.

* Iron
* Zink
* so called Buntmetal (Cupal)


Cordial greetings,

[pantherv]

Well friends, I did not post this to raise your ire. We disagree as do many knowledgeable collectors, over many items we collect.


My offer stands to buy any and all of the types I posted for the price of reproductions. My mailbox is still empty.......

Bob Hritz

Trouble is Bob I don't possess any ......still, thanks for posting the shields in your first post.....still love that Buntmetal Narvik above all else.

KR...........Peter

[djpool]

While 5,500 recipients is an indicator of rarity, the true indicator is how many were actually made. From what I understand even the number of 5,500 recipients is really only a guess. I don't have any estimate on hand, for the number actually produced but I'd guess 50,000. Three to four per reciepient plus stocks at authorized outlets, over runs for economy measures, sample bords etc. According to the article on Cholm shields on the forum LDO outlets sold Cholm shields complete, just the shield or the shield with backplates. So outlets would have stocks of all three types on hand.

Logistics folks tend to over estimate requirements to establish a safety zone. Plus sometimes its cheaper to buy 100 of something even though you only need 1. I remember in the 1970s and 80s eating wartime K rations and buying wartime insignia and medals through our supply system.

WR jim

[Stijn David]

cholmshield

Hello Jim,


@ Cholmshield: The number of 5.500 is not a guess, it is a prooven fact => the persons who did obtain my booklet "Verleihungsurkunden zum Cholmshild - einer Forschung unter phaleristischen Gesichstpunkten " are already aware of that.

There are no estimations to be made of howmuch where produced, because not data is available on that. It is even unkown who did produce them. So all estimations on howmuch where produced etc ... are meaningles without good sources.

Where there produced more, absolutely, howmuch : nobody knows.

Therefore the only numbers that can be prooven at this point are, the number of 5.500. All other estimations are guesses at this point and will never be more iff no other proof comes above water.

Cordial greetings,

[Robin Lumsden]

So Bob, are you saying that the zinc shields are fakes to the originals...surely this one is accepted as a ' text book example '....accepted by collectors and dealers alike....
The only Cholm shield I'd look at now would be this example below after experiencing the minefield thats out there.

KR.........Peter

Peter.

I have one identical to yours (but more worn) and I'm totally happy with it.

It's in zinc..............but the zinc is more GREEN than grey. Almost like toned bronze.

[djpool]

Hello Jim,


@ Cholmshield: The number of 5.500 is not a guess, it is a prooven fact => the persons who did obtain my booklet "Verleihungsurkunden zum Cholmshild - einer Forschung unter phaleristischen Gesichstpunkten " are already aware of that.

There are no estimations to be made of howmuch where produced, because not data is available on that. It is even unkown who did produce them. So all estimations on howmuch where produced etc ... are meaningles without good sources.

Where there produced more, absolutely, howmuch : nobody knows.

Therefore the only numbers that can be prooven at this point are, the number of 5.500. All other estimations are guesses at this point and will never be more iff no other proof comes above water.

Cordial greetings,

I can live with the 5,500. But from what I read that doesn't represent the total numbers eligible for the award, does it. There were reinforcements flown in, air crew etc that were also eligible. So the number eligible is probably higher is my guess. I doubt its a huge number but still. WR jim

[Robin Lumsden]

All campaign shield recipients normally got 4 or 5 examples of each shield.............for sewing on to dress, combat, walking-out etc. tunics.

So probably around 20,000 Cholm shields were actually issued.............still a small number compared to almost 1,000,000 Krims.