Core Paint

[Matthieu]

With glossy paint .....

[Matthieu]

Another Schickle ....

[Nigel N]

Hi Mathijs!!!!!!!
A BIG thank you to you as well!!! Your photo's are very helpful, the glossier finish on one of your Schickle's looks very similar to the later Deumer EK paint finish.......
57%20EK2%20MM%20Not%20Readable.jpg

57%20EK2%20MM%20Not%20Readable%20Rear.jpg

[Nigel N]

Well guys, I've looked at the photo's kindly posted by Mathijs and Rudy, plus others from old threads and various internet sites, and compared them with EK's and RK's from other makers, and heres what I think at the moment.......
Let me say first, that nothing here is solid proof, nothing is 100% certain, but....
The different finishes on the Schickle RK's, both core and frame look to be very similar to those found on Deumer EK's, and quite different from the finish on Deschler's, Assmann's, or S&L's!
So, unless there is a major 57 maker that we haven't yet discovered, IMO Deumer is the most likely maker of the Schickle RK, new evidence may come to light in the future to change that thought, as has happened before, but for now, that, to me, is the answer that makes the most sense??
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, and if you also think Deumer is a possible maker, or if not, who else might be!!!
-Nigel

[Leroy]

It would not surprise me at all to learn that Deumer was the producer of the 1957 version of the Schickle RK. I also still believe that it was involved in some direct way with the wartime Schickle as well.

There was something going on with Deumer and Knights Crosses during the war. Dietrich has made a decent case, in an article published in his magazine, that Deumer was the producer of the 3/4 ring RK. In photographs from the Ludenscheid Stadtarchive of the Deumer workshop, still another RK is shown being assembled. In all likelihood, the cross being assembled in the photos is of the frame type we call "Zimmermann/ Godet" and the actual cross exhibited in the Ludenscheid Museum, as a Deumer, is in fact a "Zimmermann". We know, from research by Trevor ('Streptile') that there were connections between Zimmermann and Godet and Godet and Deumer.

The Shropshire Light Infantry Museum holds a Knights Cross with Oakleaves obtained by a British General at the end of the war. The pieces are mounted as they came, on a Deumer display card, but the cross is a Schickle. Similarly, a British dealer had a couple of years ago a Knights Cross with Oakleaves brought back by an RAF member with other items from Ludenscheid at the end of the war. The cross is a Schickle and the Oakleaves are an unmarked Godet type (the first ever seen) with a suspension loop of the type seen on S&L pieces.

Producers? Distributors? Assemblers? Nothing is certain at this time, but it increasing looks like Ludenscheid, between Deumer and S&L, had something to do with 5 of the 7 RK types we "recognize" today (3/4 ring, Godet, Zimmermann, Schickle and S&L), with Deumer "out front" by far. I'd love to get into the die storage areas of Deumer and S&L.....

Nice job, Nigel.

[Nigel N]

Thanks for your thoughts and comments Gentry!!!!!!!!!
-Nigel

[vic007]

Well guys, I've looked at the photo's kindly posted by Mathijs and Rudy, plus others from old threads and various internet sites, and compared them with EK's and RK's from other makers, and heres what I think at the moment.......
Let me say first, that nothing here is solid proof, nothing is 100% certain, but....
The different finishes on the Schickle RK's, both core and frame look to be very similar to those found on Deumer EK's, and quite different from the finish on Deschler's, Assmann's, or S&L's!
So, unless there is a major 57 maker that we haven't yet discovered, IMO Deumer is the most likely maker of the Schickle RK, new evidence may come to light in the future to change that thought, as has happened before, but for now, that, to me, is the answer that makes the most sense??
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, and if you also think Deumer is a possible maker, or if not, who else might be!!!
-Nigel

Looking at your reasoning i also tend to Deumer as the maker for the Schickle crosses.
Like you say there is no smoking gun (yet) but your assumptions are made on elements we can see and coherent with known features so for me your conclusion is correct. IMO you answered another 57er question.

You did a great job looking at the details like that, Nigel.
Well done and thank you very much for your work.

Best regards


stijn

[Norm F]

Great thread. Very interesting!

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Here are the pieces I mentioned.

[Nigel N]

Thanks for the photo's Gentry, and the information, and to everyone else who has commented!
@Stijn.... As you said not at all solid proof, but as you know with 57ers, sometimes you just don't get that proof you are looking for, very little written info, very few MM'd pieces etc. often its just by comparing pieces, common sense, eliminating certain aspects and so on.
In this case, forgetting Souval, there are only 4 known 57 makers........
Deumer, Deschler, S&L and Assmann.
The finish(es) on the Schickle RK's are a good match to one maker (Deumer) but different to the other three, so, as I said earlier, unless theres another maker still unknown, or someone used a different finish on the Schickle to what they used on their other pieces, then surely Deumer has to be the most likely candidate??
One other thing I forgot to mention was quality, Deumer are well known for the quality of their 57 pieces, and we have all seen how good the quality is on the Schickle's!!
And finally, as we previously mentioned, it seemed that Deumer made just about all the range of 57 pieces...yet there was no Deumer RK???? I always found that strange!!
-Nigel

[tony james]

I just checked my crosses in natural sunlight and compared to the photos in this thread this is what i have come up with.my 2nd class S&L ( 4 on the ring ) and first class ( identical frame,date oakleaves and paint and both magnetic ) match the photo early 60s S&L with a very smooth finish but with a very very slight gloss. My schickle KC has the same finish but no trace of any gloss .the closest paint it matches is the early S&L or the flat smooth deumer. also my KC compared to my wartime schickle seem to have the same paint except for the wear.

[Nigel N]

Thanks for sharing your findings Tony!!!!!!!
-Nigel

[Nigel N]

Here are another couple of photo's of the Schickle RK that Gentry mentioned, which is on display at the Shropshire Regiment's Museum here in England!
It is mounted on a Deumer card, and was picked up in Ludenscheid at the wars end........
1.JPG

2.JPG
I am going to try and visit the museum at some point to see the RK for myself, and find out if they have any more information about it!!

At the moment, this is one of the few pieces of evidence we have that points to Deumer being the buyer of Schickle's stock/dies when Schickle ceased production in 1941!
If they were indeed the buyers of Schickle's stock, then it would be very likely I think, that it was Deumer, who used them for the "Schickle" framed 57 RK's!!
-Nigel

[Mike Yokum]

Very interesting and informative thread, Nigel.