EK1 1914 - 1957er or TR made?

[Miro O]

Hello 57ers,

I would like to see your opinion about this cross that was posted to Imperial Section as TR era made piece.

To me it looks like 57er. Am I wrong?

Thanks for your opinions.

Here is the link to the thread: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=680595

Miro

[Tony T-S]

It certainly reminds one of a 57er as people have said on the other thread. It will be interesting to see what people have to say. Beautiful cross.

[Nigel N]

Hi!
Dating Imperial cored Deumers is very difficult, with some wartime leftover parts almost certainly being used in later crosses!
As well as wartime, and 57 era produced pieces, I would guess that Deumer were also making these as vets replacement's in the period between 45 and 57!!
The finish is often a clue, with some examples clearly having more of a 57 appearance to the frame, while on others, the frame finish looks more like swastika cored wartimers!
The L/11 mark is interesting, and could be of some help, as most, but not all of the 57 cored Deumer EK1's that are MM'd, have the top/bottom, (or both) lines of the box extending off to the left..........
014.JPG


Is that found on some wartime swastika cored Deumers?????????

[Nigel N]

Then theres the core, and its details!
There seem to be at least two slightly different cores found in Imperial cored Deumer EK1's, one has a flatter, squarer font style, while the other is slightly thinner and more rounded, both these are found in what I believe are postwar crosses, (one maybe 57era, while the other could be earlier?) but is either found in known wartime produced pieces???
tr6.jpg
tr3.jpg

[Nigel N]

Then there are bead flaws and lots of other small details!!!!
Of course it only takes one old core or frame used in a later cross....... You get the idea!!!
I think a collaboration between TR, Imperial and 57 sections is probably needed to sort this out once and for all??????
-Nigel

[Miro O]

The L/11 mark is interesting, and could be of some help, as most, but not all of the 57 cored Deumer EK1's that are MM'd, have the top/bottom, (or both) lines of the box extending off to the left.......... Is that found on some wartime swastika cored Deumers?????????

Here is the LDO mark detail of 1939 Deumer EK1 for reference.

[Montgomery Burns]

Then there are bead flaws and lots of other small details!!!!
Of course it only takes one old core or frame used in a later cross....... You get the idea!!!
I think a collaboration between TR, Imperial and 57 sections is probably needed to sort this out once and for all??????
-Nigel

chip in on the frame flaws here ,,,got some info .

I sold a war time 39'er a with a front frame that had (some bead flaws).

but on the backside a lot More off bead frame flaws ,,,,( I mean rely bad )

indicated to me that frame flaws not always safe for time framing production dates .

Also from reliable Book source I know ,,,,(Harald Geißler),,

1941 the stock of iron crosses and parts was so big the production was almost lying still .

even stopped the gablonser production method replacing the old methods on the starting line.

so flaws in general are in my view late 1941 in to 1943,,,,
possible iron crosses from 1943/45/48
can also hold brand new flaw free parts as well as heavily flawed parts out of a old stock ...

I believe the same is possible for 1950 /57 . who knowingly used stock parts.













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regards kay

[Matthieu]

No scientific proof to support my view on it, but I'm saying 1957 era mad ...

[Douglas 5]

Hi Nigel - Douglas from the TR cross forum .
Interesting question brought up .
If I may post some observations and answer a question you had . Using pictures of a L/11 I had and which Robert now owns . I do not have many pictures and any others if needed he would have to make now .

Is there another - 3rd core ...I would say yes ... a very well worn die . Pictures shown below . Crown worn down - different ??
Comparing both L/11 marks... the extend 'line' type is prestine flawless and appears 'new' - ??

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

The 1914 date and reverse and interesting surface features .
Note the die flaws on the 'W' !

Douglas

[Nigel N]

Hi Douglas!!
Thanks for your input, that's what I was hoping to see, and now I think we are making progress!!!
Here are a couple of Imperial cored Deumer EK1's...........
001.jpg

002.jpg
The one on the left is, I believe, very similar to the one you showed Douglas?
Heavily vaulted, with more of a wartime look to the finish, while the flatback on the right has, to my mind, a typical 57er finish!!
FORGOT TO MENTION THE WEIGHTS........
VAULTED.....16g
FLATBACK.......16g

[Nigel N]

The vaulted version has the L/11 mark with no extended line on the surrounding box, and also the same scratches to the lower left, here are the crown, date and cypher from the vaulted one.....
tr1.jpg

tr3.jpg

[Nigel N]

cypher.......
tr2.jpg
At the moment i'm not sure if this one is inter-war, wartime, or early postwar??

[Nigel N]

Heres detail from the one I believe is from the 57 period.....
Crown & date...........
tr4.jpg

tr6.jpg

[Nigel N]

Cypher.........
tr5.jpg